Why did the US government torture and imprison a 12 year old for 6 years?

[Kuya]

Between all the anti-american posts from Kuya

lol

[Kuya]

Opposing torture is anti America. When did torture become the essense of America?

edit: this sums up the points the shrill ones are making:

http://i27.tinypic.com/2ufaa7s.jpg

[Sgtpayne]

I mulled responding to this thread for a bit before deciding to take the chance and say a bit about it. I'm not going to say either side of the argument is right or wrong here, but I'll share a few things that might at least give a little insight.

First off, I did several tours in the middle east. I'm pretty damn familiar with how things work both in the minds of the soldiers, as well with what usually motivates the local people. If this kid was seen doing what he's been accused of doing by coalition forces, his chances of living through it are pretty small. For quite a while (not sure how long, it depended on the area, unit SOP, etc) it was standard to kill anyone holding an RPG on sight. Didn't matter if it was a kid, woman, man, whatever. There were many situations where kids and old women were shot for picking up an RPG off of a dead man (RPG's are worth good money, and worth the chance of getting killed by some of the populace). Fact of that matter is, most soldiers wouldn't think twice. If this kid had thrown a grenade at my convoy, I have no doubt someone in the squad would have got him before I even got my rifle up.

As to being 'sold out' by his countrymen, I'm sure that's exactly what it was. Typical attitude in the middle east revolves around no one truly being interested in helping you unless you help them first. Rarely did I ever see someone cooperate unless there was something in it for them. A lot of good intel came out of helping someone fix their roof or giving their child medical attention. Most of these guys would tell us their grandma was a terrorist if it meant a quick 10 bucks.

Torture...You better believe it happens, and often. It doesn't matter whether it's illegal or not. There really is no deterrent, especially if your command either directs it or turns their head. Morality doesn't come easily to the soldier who just had his buddies get hurt/killed by a grenade at a convoy, emotion typically wins out. It isn't right, but that's the gut reaction, and gut reactions are usually all you have at that point (logic seriously fails when you aren't sleeping and always under stress).

I can think of many, many instances of torture being used by both sides. The Afghanis did it, the Taliban did it, and we did it too. Some spook shows up, grabs a couple guys, and nods at them to kick the crap out of the subject whenever the interpreter translates back an answer he doesn't like. That's the mild version.

Fact of the matter is, there's too many ways around being held accountable for any of this. If you systematically deny it as a group, and there's really nothing to substantiate it to investigators (there usually isn't), you're going to walk. If it's against our agreements or laws, we make someone else do it usually.

I don't know what else to say, really. It's hard to explain to a mixed crowd of people who either know what it's like up close or don't. Those that have been there know exactly what I'm talking about, maybe some of you who don't have an idea yet on what the emotions and reality are like just get a taste. Don't think there's a single story I could tell that would give a good feel for what it entails, you just kind of learn by immersion.

[Kuya]

This guy portrays well the spirit of this thread, and that spirit, that idea is that the torture and abuse of a kid should be enough to have anyone calling for investigations and prosecutions.

Movement conservatives' public support for torture has contradicted even their own cherished mythology. The only constant has been their unyielding conviction in their own righteousness. Consider – they love to invoke WWII, if simplistically and inaccurately, yelling that every new threat is a new Hitler and anything less than belligerence is "appeasement." Yet they ignore that during WWII, we prosecuted the same torture and abuses they've defended under Bush. The Cult of Saint Ronnie still worships the poor policy and cartoonish morality of Reagan denouncing the Soviet Union as an "evil empire." (In his recent Reagan book, Will Bunch relates that Reagan himself regretted using the phrase, and later the far right accused Reagan of being Chamberlain for dealing with the Soviets.) Yet the torture program instituted under Bush borrowed directly from the hated Soviets. The key reason given for invading Iraq was that it had WMD and was an imminent threat, but Saddam Hussein was also depicted (fantastically) as the next Hitler and (accurately) as a dictator and torturer. The Hussein regime's victims were invoked more often after the invasion as a way to browbeat Iraq critics. So how is it that what made Hussein evil became good when done by the United States? When Iraqi Muntadar al-Zaidi threw a show at Bush, several far-right conservatives approved of the broken hand and ribs he received in prison. As Roy Edroso quipped, “I always suspected that when they were denouncing Saddam’s torture chambers, they were just angry that they didn’t get to say who got tortured.”

The law is in place to protect us all from people in power whose certainty, vengeance or political need drives them to abuse others.

Whatever one's feelings about how to treat actual terrorists, we have imprisoned, tortured and murdered innocent people. Prisoners were tortured when there was no ticking time bomb. The abuses at Abu Ghraib, Bagram and Guantanamo were not the result of "bad apples" but instead deliberate policies of abuse dictated from the very top. And the Bush administration received plenty of warnings before, during and after those decisions that they ignored, squelched or even punished.

We can debate the motivations of the torture proponents in the Bush administration, and the precise dynamics of panic, authoritarianism, callousness, ignorance, zealotry and evil. Some of that's come out, although plenty more can. As I've written before, it was impossible for them to arrive at that dark place without monumental arrogance, dehumanization of all potential victims, and a deep and utter contempt for democracy. The Cheney plan to violate Posse Comitatus and deploy military personnel domestically, the warrantless surveillance systems, indefinite detention, torture and abuse – all of these radical measures are all on a continuum. (And seriously, if you haven't read Angler by Barton Gellman yet, do so.)

However, the crucial thing is to keep nailing down the facts, and bringing up what is known in public. Bush defenders almost always try to change the subject, ignore major reports and the timeline, or make unsubstantiated claims about how they saved the nation from sure destruction. The evidence known already forms an utterly damning narrative, and obliterates a "good faith" defense, no matter how much torture apologists - and blissfully uninformed commentators such as Chuck Todd - assert otherwise. However, plenty of details remain to be revealed. Legally, credible allegations of torture must be investigated. Logically, such an investigation would exonerate the torturers if they were telling the truth. Realistically, such unchecked power will be abused again if there are no consequences this time. Morally, the truth must come out and justice must be done.

Notice another thing about those who make shrill apologetics posts about torture and all these abuses whilst simultanously declaring that they don't support what was done, unlike those who are outraged by this and demand investigations, those who shrug this off are incoherent in their claims and complaints, and they are incoherent because what they defend is illogical and wrong. You have people claiming that investigations would amount to witch hunts, you have others making apologies because of 9/11, you have others claiming that torture is alright to use on all terrorists even if they haven't been proven to be terrorists, and you have others claiming that we need to detain them forever to protect ourselves. They have no undelining principles behind what they say because they have to suspend belief and logic in a non sequitor vacuum to even defend crap like this.

At this point, if you don't support investigations and prosecutions, you are wrong.

[Melchiah]

So let's see. I posted multiple sources made up of investigations and research into the case that say that:

A- His confession was obtained through threats and torture.

B- Three people have claimed responsability for the grenade attack.

C- The thumbprint that prooves he belongs to a terrorist organization is not his.

And the only rebuttal i've received thus far is that i should move to Canada, and that i hate America.

If you aren't a bible-thumping conservative with provable roots in this country dating to the American Revolution, OR you call into question any policy enacted by a conservative regime, then yes you are an America-hating socio-commie faggot who campaigns against freedom. Didn't you know?

And Correction: Leif would only have the vaunted American legal system apply to Americans. Never mind that we're trying to "bring freedom" to these poor savages in the Middle East in our infinite benevolence and wisdom, we don't have to hold our behavior towards them to the same standard as we do to ourselves until such point as we have successfully brought them to freedom. Get it?

[Colenzo]

Who gives a shit if we were torturing 12 year olds, as long as I get my taco bell and adult swim.

[Cyn]

Kuya, why don't you just make one thread entitled "LET'S DEMONIZE AMERICA!!!" and post all of your anti America sensationalist propaganda in it instead of creating a new thread every few days?

Yes, America is fucked up, but so is the rest of the world. Stop attempting to vent your impotent fury over the fact that your little island is owned by us by continually rubbing our noses in every little fucking thing you can drag up off the internet that portrays America in a bad light.

[Kuya]

The torture of a 12 year old is now anti america sensasionalist propaganda. Amazing.

The only thing those who aren't armed with facts can do is dispense ad hominems. Is the reality that the previous government liberally involved itself in war crimes so painful that the only reprise is lashing out at the one providing the facts? A dangerous situation indeed.

[Cyn]

I am not terribly bothered by the fact that you hate America dude. I just don't understand why you can't contain it in a single thread instead of continually making new ones to say basically the same thing.

[Elvis]

If you don't like America, you can get out!

[Kuya]

I am sure saying that i hate America, if you believe hard enough, will somehow change the fact that the OP is true. Now get out of the thread if the only thing you want to do is attack my person.

[Kuya]

Notice the cynicism and complete disregard for the humanity of others, and the rule of law that one has to have, to simply dismiss what happened as something that other nations do and so it doesn't matter.

Basically, this Cyn person is saying that, if other nations rape little girls, well then America can do it too. Apparently Cyn does not believe in laws or holding oneself to higher standards.

Another interesting thing, it seems if you attack the US government, some Americans take it as if you were attacking every American. What a bizzare sight.

[Khajit]

His confession was ruled inadmissible because of just that.

BBC says he is currently scheduled for release.

What's the story here?

I consider all that stuff he went through pretty fair game for throwing grenades at an American convoy.

First of all that still doesn't excuse torture. Second of all he never even threw a grenade. they just tortured him until they could make him say he did.

Also. Do you seriously not see how such actions make things WORSE for the US? It's shit like this where a country(or even just it's military/leaders) has no respect for other human beings that made terrorism such a threat to the USA in the first place. It's absolutely retarded to keep on going with these types of actions and expect the problem to get better.

[Skyylya]

Puerto rico supports torture too you know, just look at the annoying chick contestant you all sent over here for american idol.

that was the worst.


edit: there should be a stat tracker for how many times kuya makes consecutive posts without anybody saying anything in between. I think on every page he's done it a few times. In most cases you can say people just like to hear themselves talk....does he like to read himself?

[Cyn]

Notice the cynicism and complete disregard for the humanity of others, and the rule of law that one has to have, to simply dismiss what happened as something that other nations do and so it doesn't matter.

Basically, this Cyn person is saying that, if other nations rape little girls, well then America can do it too. Apparently Cyn does not believe in laws or holding oneself to higher standards.

Another interesting thing, it seems if you attack the US government, some Americans take it as if you were attacking every American. What a bizzare sight.

I don't support torture any more than you do Kuya. In fact, I may even dislike the American government as much as you do.

But when someone goes around all day devoting all of their time to pointing out every injustice that a single country is guilty of, while spontaneously ignoring every other evil in the word as well as the good that the country does... please.

[Elvis]

On a more serious note: this is a gaming forum.

Unless Kuya were to post his comments in a thread about the Iraq War/ME conflict in general - the context will be lost.

Here we are, going about our day talking about butterface FFXI players piddling themselves on camera and cats being mutilated and BAM, outta no where, here comes Kuya with his freedom-hating/terrorist sympathizing threads!

Why can't he let us converse on the minutia of everyday trivialities such as how to pee with morning wood or who shot first (Greedo or Han)? Why can't he leave America alone? She's a human!

So maybe we should have a politicsfag section. As a politicsfag myself (Israel-Palestine is my focus; and I spam the Gaza thread when I think something important and pertinent, happens) I think it'd be great.

It will separate - structurally - the knee-jerk love-it-or-leave-it type of responses right off the bat.

The context of such a sub-forum would be that the United States is a STATE (political entity). The United States is the most powerful State (political entity) and as such it will be subjected to many criticisms.

We're not criticizing Luxemburg are we? Why is that? Because it's fucking Luxemburg.

Now maybe people are upset Kuya is focusing on the American STATE as opposed to let's say, China or Russia. However, as Americans, we should be criticizing our own State because we have something to do with it. We have a stake in the good and bad deeds of the American STATE.

Think of Sakharov. Would you call him anti-Soviet? Would that imply he hates the Soviet Union? I mean to be fair - when one here's the term SOVIET UNION - I believe on this forum at least, we do not immediately think of the country and the culture and the everyday people.

We think of the GOVERNMENT or the body politic.

When we think of the United States - the term sounds much more idealistic and positive. "United States" sounds good. "Soviet Union" sounds draconian.

People here characterizing Kuya as anti-American need to define what it means to be anti-American.

If that means opposing the foreign policy of the American STATE then I see nothing wrong with the term, anti-American.

If it means hating American culture and history (Silas Soule, MLK JR, popular film or music, Saturday morning cartoons, sausage wrapped in pancakes) then I can understand the antagonism.

That's not what Kuya regularly gets upset about. In fact, that's not AT ALL what he gets upset about. He's talking about our foreign policy. Learn the difference.

If you can't then let's have a politics sub-section and make some rules - no trolling/no racism or bigotry.

[Kuya]

ignoring every other evil in the word

lol

[Khajit]

Another interesting thing, it seems if you attack the US government, some Americans take it as if you were attacking every American. What a bizzare sight.

I always found that interesting too.
Whenever the government does something bad they say "oh no that's the government and not us. The people and the government are different." The problem with this is that as the people the entire political system is based upon the people choosing whomever is best for them so anything the government does could be called the will of the people unless the majority of the people protest the actions of the government. However if the government is going against the will of the people then it needs to be changed/replaced as it is not serving as a proper government at all.
Bleh I couldn't say it properly but but basically American citizens being completely innocent for the things their government(which they supposedly control as it's what makes America "the greatest nation in the world" as they love to chant) does is a weird kind of circular logic that depends on itself being wrong to be correct.

[Cyn]

I think a politics and religion subforum would be a great idea personally.

If nothing else, the threads that Neo and Plow derail can all be moved there.

[Kuya]

The poll i posted said that over 50% of Americans oppose torture, so apparently the government didn't ask its people if they could torture. Why defend a government that did something illegal without consulting its people?