King's Justice vs Raging Rush

[Nameless]

This is why paper math is the most accurate in term of WS damage.

I honestly don't believe in parse against yourself. Too many things can change even under the same exact settings. Even not diaing the mob once a while will change the result severely, and that's not even under the player's control.

[BerenTebogo]

The reason your RR parsed higher is because your KJ gear sucks compared to your RR gear. No gorget? Ok np at least get Kubria. No triumph earring, No swap to STR sachet to compensate for the excess ACC you have. You're losing 4 STR and gorget bonus at the least and 8 STR if you refuse to use gorget.

That's almost like wearing another Ebody.

The parse was close, close enough that 8STR would've pushed KJ ahead with the same buffs.

And polearm will always win if you dont slackass like you obviously have with your KJ gear. Stop making excuses for yourself and then whining about it when you're wrong. Shit isn't nearly as complicated as you're making it.

[Starr]

Obviously I would have rather had 2 BRD but fuck that when I want merits, I want Corsair's Roll.

I assume the same numbers of lv81 and lv82 mobs were in each sample because the pull cycle is constant.

It doesn't matter if my base damage drops for 1 second or a single hit THAT much, noone on WAR with 20% DA can WS at 100% every time, you are asking the impossible to try and prove this wrong.

I am trying my best, tell the "lolcolibri" people that they are needed as to best do that. I will parse and parse and parse and keep posting but people will only try and try to find the stupidest, most irrelevant little things to try and dismiss it. I have parsed RR constantly higher than KJ in the past and since I have come back I have only seen the same. There is enough evidence in this thread for people to make their own minds up now.

[Starr]

The reason your RR parsed higher is because your KJ gear sucks compared to your RR gear. No gorget? Ok np at least get Kubria. No triumph earring, No swap to STR sachet to compensate for the excess ACC you have. You're losing 4 STR and gorget bonus at the least and 8 STR if you refuse to use gorget.

That's almost like wearing another Ebody.

The parse was close, close enough that 8STR would've pushed KJ ahead with the same buffs.

And polearm will always win if you dont slackass like you obviously have with your KJ gear. Stop making excuses for yourself and then whining about it when you're wrong. Shit isn't nearly as complicated as you're making it.

It hardly sucks, the PCC and Assault are needed to cap Accuracy on GC with Aggressor down for sure, not when it's up but that's a whole nother level I am not going to. Taru does not have a STR sachet.

No it wasn't, you would need to omit the WS I pointed out that did not count on RR and the average would have been a lot higher.

Polearm will do slightly more damage if you have at least Aurum Cuirass and 8 Polearm merits. I have whined about nothing and been shown wrong about nothing. Shit is not complicated at all for me, you seem to not understand things.

[Thunder]

There is enough evidence in this thread for people to make their own minds up now.

But you didn't address masa's math about KJ under berserk and RR when not. Nobody has yet.

[Starr]

I didn't see him mention that anywhere, I struggle to read his posts so I normally just skim them though.

[Starr]

Also Sath, saying my KJ gear is piss poor, my RR gear could do with a lot, lot more making it do even more damage so don't give me that.

[Masamune]

yes sorry i realized was offtopic i edited

[Starr]

I'll test 100% TP Raging Rush critical hit rate when I am sad enough to have time to do at least 200 tries, people can post their paper math which represents nothing compared to a parser where people are not robots and imperfect and we will call it a day but I will continue to use RR where I know it beats KJ and anyone who wants to do otherwise can be happy being inferior.

[Thunder]

lvl81 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 698.15(833.34)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 756.71(917.15)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 629.38(789.92)

lvl82 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 659.82(792.18 )
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 714.08(869.16)
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 586.63(741.48 )

Reread this and the replies.. and I think I fucked up.

The third line of KJs with (no NCR) means no natural crit rate, correct, masa?
If so I looked at the numbers of KJ where masa made the mistake of calculating the numbers where-in KJ has a natural crit rate.
RR > KJ always by that math, unless there's something wrong with the hypothetical gear he used but I don't want to try and determine the gear sets used for the WSs based on total stats.

[Yugl]

The parse needed to include DoT when using both grips in order to account for the differences in DoT. It should also parse using RR with Pole grip as well. However, having said that, I think this is the real answer:

This is why paper math is the most accurate in term of WS damage.

I honestly don't believe in parse against yourself. Too many things can change even under the same exact settings. Even not diaing the mob once a while will change the result severely, and that's not even under the player's control.

I agree with this entirely. The difference between these two is so close that minor differences can easily tilt the scale in one WS's favor. Furthermore, it's been stated that in order for RR to compare to KJ, you need some of the best gear. This obviously does not apply to everyone, so whether someone should be using KJ or RR will depend entirely on what they can obtain or have at the time. That is why simply doing the math based on what gear choices are available (EX: Person comes and says I can use this "KJ Set" or this "RR Set", what is better?) instead of blanketing the situation and suggesting that RR > KJ no matter what using *Camp here*.

[Thunder]

people can post their paper math which represents nothing compared to a parser where people are not robots

It's the other way around. Parser can't prove what's really better because people wont dia/haste/sing/roll/pull/etc at the most opportune moments.
But that's the same argument you have against math and it's wrong.

If either of the WSs wins with math it wont matter if mob gets dia'd after ws, it wont matter if you ws without songs on, and it wont matter if you ws without rolls on. Only way I see an accurate parse is when you're parsing an instance where you're only trying to prove the difference, not when you're getting merits, too.

If you really want everybody to come to a conclusion you need to be fighting colibri without exp buffs(cor roll), atk/acc buffs, or dia, ever. And then show averages on the two different levels of colibri.

But like people just said above me: gear comes into question so you really can't win this, huh.

[Nameless]

ppl are not robots is the reason parse can't be 100% accurate, but the math behind it can. Unless well, the paper math is not the same one the game is using, which is certainly a possibility consider 2hand pdif is still somewhat inconsistent, and critical hit rate theory we have is also based on a pretty small sample.

However, parse result is definitely not the most reliable source to see which WS is better, especially neither of your set is the optimal set, so the result is really just saying RR is for you but KJ isn't.

[Cream Soda]

lulz @ no gorget

[PeaceNLove]

Gave RR an honest try in a meripo at MMJSP a couple days ago, even revamped my RR set with a good amount more DEX. This parse was at front camp. 135 mobs total, 56 of which were puks while the rest were mamools, skoffins, and a few mamool pets. 2x Minuet and Hedgehog Pie. Dia use was fairly erratic, only cast on about 1/5th of the mobs.

http://i25.tinypic.com/10comj9.jpg

RR is just way behind for me... Here are my gearsets.

RR: - FFXIAH.com (122 DEX)
KJ: - FFXIAH.com

Moved on to Jade camp when it cleared out and I resumed my traditional KJ usage with RR mainly when Bergressor was down. Parse may or may not be relevant for some people, but here it is anyway. 175 mobs total with only 41 puks.

http://i30.tinypic.com/4hjbb.jpg

Had another meripo at Jade the day after trying out a red curry bun with 2x Minuet and Chaos roll and pushed my KJ average to ~1240. Didn't save it because I accidentally hit "Begin Default Parse" instead =[. Anyways, that's just a little more input from someone with decent gearsets.

[Nameless]

Those parse results look more like it.

[Masamune]

Those parse results look more like it.

No. i didnot look at them as soon as i saw :

- parses posted for ALL mobs...
- sample size : 175 mobs with 40-56 puks, which means for each mamool jobs/level, skoff etc... a sample size less than 10 mobs...
- Dia used erratically, like poster said : 1/5 of sample size is out...
- MMJSP is an horrible camp to use parses for tests, because of debuffs a player can receive.
- chaos roll used on 2nd parse...

all these reasons make i can't even hope to calculate even a slight close avg value. In other words, those parses are useless fortopic.

On good side tho, poster posted at least his gears and used BRDx2 in 1st parse, and debuffs his rdm used... good start but way not enough sadly.

i'll quote Thunder "Only way I see an accurate parse is when you're parsing an instance where you're ONLY trying to prove the difference, not when you're getting merits,..."
If poeple don't get that (especially Starr), then can close this topic...

[Knyghtmayre]

While mathematical formulation is the way to go to see which CAN be better, parses are far more realistic when arriving at the conclusion as to which one IS better. It's irrelevant which one wins on paper with no buffs, only on colibri, when the moon is full, at night, if you engage every mob on an odd integer of vana'diel time. What's relevant is how they stack up in actual situations with actual buffs and actual human error/randomness thrown into it. You can't just say "Oh well shit, only 1/5 of the mobs were dia'd!" and just rule the parse as invalid because in any merit situation, that's what's going to happen. You can't say that MMJSP invalidates the parse because it's a merit camp that people actually go to. I really hope I didn't just somehow agree with Starr.

[Nameless]

While mathematical formulation is the way to go to see which CAN be better, parses are far more realistic when arriving at the conclusion as to which one IS better. It's irrelevant which one wins on paper with no buffs, only on colibri, when the moon is full, at night, if you engage every mob on an odd integer of vana'diel time. What's relevant is how they stack up in actual situations with actual buffs and actual human error/randomness thrown into it. You can't just say "Oh well shit, only 1/5 of the mobs were dia'd!" and just rule the parse as invalid because in any merit situation, that's what's going to happen. You can't say that MMJSP invalidates the parse because it's a merit camp that people actually go to. I really hope I didn't just somehow agree with Starr.

Or if you are testing RR at the start of the merit party and the rdm casts dia regularly, then you test KJ in the second half when the rdm starts going afk. The same can go with bard buff etc. Just pointing out that if you want to say that all the randomness and human error can occur for both ws, timeliness of the error is also important, which, in that case if you test KJ first instead of RR you would get entirely different result. Not saying that's what he did, but just saying in such instance, it wouldn't be fair.

For papermath for WS, I honestly don't see how it can be inaccurate. If papermath suggest that KJ should average 1100, RR should average 1000 with the given gear sets, what do you think would make the result differ from a parse? Human error? but what kind? what error can possibly happen? WS when mob's HP is low and not get all hits in? that's an error papermath can avoid and why would you want to account for that error to see what ws is better?

Papermath suggests what SHOULD happen while parse result shows you what CAN happen. And you should do everything you can to eliminate error to lead you to what should happen. You are either not playing it right or there are outside factors that prevent you from heading toward the what should happen. Zerging is one of the better example, if on paper you should get 50 hits off in 30 sec with MK vs 45 hits off in 30 sec with ridill, and your parse result shows 45 hits from MK and 55 hits from ridill, you gonna then say, well, I should be using ridill from now on since the randomness occur at the same rate for both, and base on one parse result I should believe in what it spit out regardless what my math tells me. Follow the math, this game is all just a big load of math.

[Yugl]

While mathematical formulation is the way to go to see which CAN be better, parses are far more realistic when arriving at the conclusion as to which one IS better. It's irrelevant which one wins on paper with no buffs, only on colibri, when the moon is full, at night, if you engage every mob on an odd integer of vana'diel time. What's relevant is how they stack up in actual situations with actual buffs and actual human error/randomness thrown into it. You can't just say "Oh well shit, only 1/5 of the mobs were dia'd!" and just rule the parse as invalid because in any merit situation, that's what's going to happen. You can't say that MMJSP invalidates the parse because it's a merit camp that people actually go to. I really hope I didn't just somehow agree with Starr.

So it's better if I run parses where I use Angon 10x more often with WS1 than WS2?