King's Justice vs Raging Rush

[Jokez]

At bird camp I see better results with RR then KJ, on my war.

^

[CDF]

The WS base damage values presented earlier suggest that the "@" factor was not applied if that is valid. If it is, then the critical hit rate for RR to be equal to KJ would be around 30%.

[Strange]

While I have not parsed my KJ vs. RR fights at all, I'm usually disappointed when using KJ.

RR setup
FFXIGEAR.com
Galea has STR+4 ATT+5 ACC+10 WS ACC+15

KJ setup
http://ffxigear.com/?ref=17484
Sapphire is augmented with STR+1.

Merits are STR+5, GA+8, Crits+4, DA+5


What I've noticed in my discussions with other WARs on the subject is that KJ is a sort of "equalizer" WS that bridges decently-geared WARs and HQ WARs. In order to get the most out of RR, you really need some of the best gear available, though its numbers can squeak past KJ's potential.

[Mazmaz]

At merits, RR seems to always beat KJ in my parses. Hence, I've stopped using KJ.

[Starr]

The more you post, the more I feel like you don't even understand what you're actually talking about. The only thing a gear set and stats will tell you is a theoretical maximum. You can't extrapolate an "average" from that, we don't know enough about the math behind the game for that. The only way to get an average is to go and parse one, and at this point I doubt many people are going to trust what YOU post from parses because you're probably going to inflate it just to prove a point.

I've seen one parse that showed RR beating KJ since this topic came up, and many, many, many parses showing that they are either nearly equal (within 10-20 damage of each other), or that KJ slightly beats RR (50-100).

I know exactly what I'm talking about, yes you can calculate an average and I know full well I could do it myself but Thorny will be faster (and I kinda don't wanna do it if someone else enjoys doing it). I will probably be back soon so I will parse it again but I will say this for sure: on birds it beats it by a fair amount, easy 50-80 but on everything else they are a lot closer like it is a wash but I still prefer RR at 100% TP.

This thread is quickly becoming borderline flame war, so under the new rules of advanced we should both watch what we're saying. I do feel like you need to go back and revisit your understanding of things. Your WAR gear is very good, and since you're a Taru, I'm not doubting that you'd either see them nearly equal or maybe even RR coming out on top in particular situations. That being said, you're being extremely egotistical about it and you need to realize that most people don't have the means to hit 28%+ crit rate in a WS set and therefore KJ will consistently win for them.

I fully understand what I am saying here, would those people who cannot get the DEX also not be able to get good STR gear? Meaning their KJ will be weak too so it would be a wash?

[Starr]

RR setup
FFXIGEAR.com
Galea has STR+4 ATT+5 ACC+10 WS ACC+15

KJ setup
FFXIGEAR.com
Sapphire is augmented with STR+1.

Merits are STR+5, GA+8, Crits+4, DA+5

Can't work out why but your acc is really low in those, needs Fire Bomblet is all I can see.

[Zer]

Don't forget he has +14~15acc than that due to 8/8 GA and +10~ acc from the gorgets.

[Sifer]

Ok, I have a few parses of RR vs KJ. but 1st I will do the theoretical comparison.


Lets 1st assume that you use raging rush in the same gear you use KJ in. This will make PDIF equal for both WSs. Lets also assume that the mob you're fighting has 70 VIT (higher VIT favors KJ and lower favors RR).


This chart shows the base damage of both KJ and RR under these conditions (PDIF=1):

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/693/70652462.jpg


KJ Theoretically does about 6% more damage at 50 STR and does 12% more damage at 150 STR. However, the best KJ set wouldnt be pure STR since it has to have some Acc in it. I would think the best set is around 100-120 STR.

My parses and personal opinions will be in another post.

EDIT: please keep in mind that the values in the chart might not be 100% correct because values arent necessarily floored at the right times.

[Starr]

This chart shows the base damage of both KJ and RR under these conditions (PDIF=1):

=This chart doesn't help, I think a more relevant (to the situations I gave in the question) way to do this chart would have to be with KJ 3 hits at 1.5 pDIF and RR with 2 hits and 1.5 pDIF and 1 hit at 2.5 pDIF because critical Hit rate is +1 pDIF and if you include all hits with DA rate etc I think you could would see at least 1 crit per RR on average.

[BattlescarredShogun]

It seems that some of you are not equipping enough ACC in you KJ builds. Its going to be hard to cap ACC wearing AF2 pants.

[Ferien]

=This chart doesn't help, I think a more relevant (to the situations I gave in the question) way to do this chart would have to be with KJ 3 hits at 1.5 pDIF and RR with 2 hits and 1.5 pDIF and 1 hit at 2.5 pDIF because critical Hit rate is +1 pDIF and if you include all hits with DA rate etc I think you could would see at least 1 crit per RR on average.

That's a poor assumption. You would need a crit rate in the high 20s~low 30s in order to make that possible, which can't happen unless you're wearing crit+ gear. IIRC, the dDEX cap is around 20, merits gives you another 4, and the rest you need to make up with +crit%, which means you're wearing either Rampager, Claymore Grip, or not-Adaberk, two of which will skew any parse in favor of RR, and one of which would probably reduce your crit rate anyway.

In all my experience (anecdotal, and I didn't have a proper DEX build when I was messing around with each), KJ was slightly ahead on weaker mobs, widening the gap as the mob's level got higher and higher. Obviously in MS/Zerg situations, KJ was always better.

[Sifer]

got sucked into campaigning, will post parses later

EDIT: short version. they're too fkn close.

[eva00r]

plot the chart yourself and explain shit to others if you know things so well, people here are not your slave to boss around

[Starr]

plot the chart yourself and explain shit to others if you know things so well, people here are not your slave to boss around

Shut up slave. I clearly explained the logic behind what I said right there, although non of this is going to be any use until we know if RR has a +% crit at 100% TP or not and I'm unable to test myself, maybe someone can find Nagamaki's testing and see if RR was tested but I don't think it was, Evis and some MNK WS were tested.

[eva00r]

Shut up slave. I clearly explained the logic behind what I said right there, although non of this is going to be any use until we know if RR has a +% crit at 100% TP or not and I'm unable to test myself, maybe someone can find Nagamaki's testing and see if RR was tested but I don't think it was, Evis and some MNK WS were tested.

"someone" should be you idiot. do something not just complaining blah blah blah kid, if you dont have brain, just ask other how to do it.

[Starr]

Where am I complaining? If anything your last two posts have been fucking "wah wah Starr Q_Q", if you have nothing constructive to add then get the fuck out of the thread.

[didgist]

Shut up slave. I clearly explained the logic behind what I said right there, although non of this is going to be any use until we know if RR has a +% crit at 100% TP or not and I'm unable to test myself, maybe someone can find Nagamaki's testing and see if RR was tested but I don't think it was, Evis and some MNK WS were tested.

Do you have King's Justice?

[Starr]

Are you even reading what I'm saying? Can we have no more idiots with nothing constructive on the topic to say not post anymore? BG feels like a dejavu of KI these days.

[Starr]

That's a poor assumption. You would need a crit rate in the high 20s~low 30s in order to make that possible, which can't happen unless you're wearing crit+ gear. IIRC, the dDEX cap is around 20, merits gives you another 4, and the rest you need to make up with +crit%, which means you're wearing either Rampager, Claymore Grip, or not-Adaberk, two of which will skew any parse in favor of RR, and one of which would probably reduce your crit rate anyway.

hmm that is assuming there is no crit %+ at 100% TP which we don't know, or do you? So you would say something like this (for taru...) would be the best RR gear?:
On Greater Colibri, etc this would cap dDEX, accuracy (390 there + what you get from 8/8 merits) on level 81s and 94% on level 82s with Aggressor down and 95% with Aggressor up (60-70% of the time).
FFXIGEAR.com
On mobs with higher AGI/Evasion:
FFXIGEAR.com
Only 20 acc more kinda, but tons from Pizza+1 which the above set could also be used with on stuff outside of birds.

[Therin]

until we know if RR has a +% crit at 100% TP or not

Thread showing Searain's test:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/51673...ml#post1803211

This could be useful. Tests show that Rampage does not have a critical hit bonus. If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Raging Rush is the same, though this is obviously a guess. As Valisk says, Raging Rush won't beat King's Justice unless you can guarantee at least 1 critical hit on your average Raging Rush, which is an assumption that only works out if your WS set has a standing critical hit rate of at least 30%, and it *will not* have that crit rate unless it has a critical bonus.

So really, the conclusion of the argument rests on whether or not Raging Rush has a critical bonus at 100% TP.

For the sake of argument, this is probably as close as you'll ever get to 30% critical hit rate (and therefore probably pretty close to the "optimal" Raging Rush set):

FFXIGEAR.com

That's capped accuracy (when you consider 8/8 merits and Sea Gorget bonus), plus 122 DEX which should cap your critical hit rate at 20%. 4% from merits and 6% from gear puts you at 30%. So, unless you have gear like that, it's probably better to use King's Justice (notice that 30% critical hit rate would require a Claymore Grip).

For comparison, I'd say this is your best King's Justice set:

FFXIGEAR.com

It seems to be just as I said before. If you can cap crit, RR should be better. If you can't (and you *can't* in most situations), KJ is better. All that math that has been posted so far are assuming you're fighting Greater Colibri, which are piss weak anyway.

Note: Those ffxigear.com shots are Elvaan M, which is what I am. If you switch to Mithra or Taru, you can probably lose the Toreador's Ring and use Flame instead. And I forgot to switch to the correct KJ gorget but you get the picture.