King's Justice vs Raging Rush

[Starr]

All that math that has been posted so far are assuming you're fighting Greater Colibri, which are piss weak anyway.

You are not realising that a lot of other merit mobs like Sea Puks, Skoffin, MOST Mamools, MOST trolls, Einherjar mobs, MOST dynamis mobs, Einherjar mobs, Salvage, Nyzul Isle etc.................. have similar or lower AGI than GC so the math is very, very valid to more than GC.

[Fridell]

Easy version:
Everyone playing WAR should learn by experience when and why KJ works better then RR, and when RR works better then KJ! personally I think these WSs are tied in many situations, though KJ should work a bit better in high buff situations eh?

Edit: And yea what Starr said, Dyna Limbus Nyzul mobs is close to merit style mobs or lower / slightly higher, where RR should perform higher.

[Therin]

You are not realising that a lot of other merit mobs like Sea Puks, Skoffin, MOST Mamools, MOST trolls, Einherjar mobs, MOST dynamis mobs, Einherjar mobs, Salvage, Nyzul Isle etc.................. have similar or lower AGI than GC so the math is very, very valid to more than GC.

Excluding merit parties:

Nyzul Isle regulars = RR
Nyzul Isle boss = KJ
Einherjar = KJ (we saw the parse indicate on the last page that KJ was beating RR consistently)
City Dynamis = RR
Icelands Dynamis = KJ
Salvage regulars = RR
Salvage boss = KJ

It's pretty even, so why not just gear KJ, and then you won't need to buy a Zahak's Mail or TP in Claymore Grip or camp KB for a Pixie Earring?

[Thorny]

RR - no zerk/agg
124 str
119 dex
498 att
411 acc

lv81 colibri
1.25 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.17 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.21 cratio

RR - zerk/agg
124 str
119 dex
622 att
unnecessary acc

lv81 colibri
1.63 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.55 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.59 cratio

14 fSTR, 43 mod, 96 perdu base damage = 153 base dmg
153 * 3 = 459 * 1.59 = 729 + (proposed 34% crit rate if 100 tp gives 10%, capped ddex bonus, and 4% merits * 459)=156= 885 average with bergressor up * .95 acc = 840.75
459 * 1.21 = 555 + (same 156) = 711 average with bergressor down * .95 acc = 675.45
840.75 * .7(70% of the time) = 588.525
675.45 * .3(30% of the time) = 202.635
overall average = 791.16

KJ - no zerk/agg
129 str
99 dex
502 att
408 acc

Lv81 colibri
1.25 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.18 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.21 cratio

KJ - zerk/agg
128 str
99 dex
646 att
unnecessary acc

lv81 colibri
1.70 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.62 cratio
capped hitrate

1.66 avg cratio

15 fstr 64 mod 96 base = 175 base dmg
175 * 3 = 525 * 1.66 = 871.5 * .95 acc = 827.925 avg with bergressor up
525 * 1.21 = 635.25 * .95 acc = 603.4875 avg with bergressor down
827.925 * .7 = 579.5475
603.4875 * .3 = 181.04625
overall average = 760.59

[Yugl]

Thread showing Searain's test:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/51673...ml#post1803211

This could be useful. Tests show that Rampage does not have a critical hit bonus. If I were to wager a guess, I'd say Raging Rush is the same, though this is obviously a guess. As Valisk says, Raging Rush won't beat King's Justice unless you can guarantee at least 1 critical hit on your average Raging Rush, which is an assumption that only works out if your WS set has a standing critical hit rate of at least 30%, and it *will not* have that crit rate unless it has a critical bonus.

So really, the conclusion of the argument rests on whether or not Raging Rush has a critical bonus at 100% TP.

For the sake of argument, this is probably as close as you'll ever get to 30% critical hit rate (and therefore probably pretty close to the "optimal" Raging Rush set):

FFXIGEAR.com

That's capped accuracy (when you consider 8/8 merits and Sea Gorget bonus), plus 122 DEX which should cap your critical hit rate at 20%. 4% from merits and 6% from gear puts you at 30%. So, unless you have gear like that, it's probably better to use King's Justice (notice that 30% critical hit rate would require a Claymore Grip).

For comparison, I'd say this is your best King's Justice set:

FFXIGEAR.com

It seems to be just as I said before. If you can cap crit, RR should be better. If you can't (and you *can't* in most situations), KJ is better. All that math that has been posted so far are assuming you're fighting Greater Colibri, which are piss weak anyway.

Note: Those ffxigear.com shots are Elvaan M, which is what I am. If you switch to Mithra or Taru, you can probably lose the Toreador's Ring and use Flame instead. And I forgot to switch to the correct KJ gorget but you get the picture.

I thought it was 132 DEX for reasonable mamools and higher for the ridiculous ones (Lurkers)?

[Therin]

Thorny's Math

As I said, RR > KJ if you can cap crit rate, but not if you can't. If you redo that math without the +10% critical bonus from RR, you'll notice KJ pulling ahead. We know Rampage doesn't have a critical bonus so for now it's better to assume that RR doesn't either, until someone can prove otherwise.

I thought it was 132 DEX for reasonable mamools and higher for the ridiculous ones (Lurkers)?

Something like that, yeah. That's why I said my math was done vs. Greater Colibri, which favors RR more than KJ.

[Thorny]

(we saw the parse indicate on the last page that KJ was beating RR consistently)

How can you see ANYTHING consistantly with sample sizes of 3 and 9 RRs? That aside, they're missing Hachiryu Kote, Thunder Ring, Ancient Torque.. all of which are significant improvements to a DEX build for RR, as well as Pixie which is less significant. In idealistic circumstances, I would say RR is a better weaponskill for Ein normal mobs/Glacier(though not xarcabard) while the rest of your list seems accurate.

[fantasticdan]

You would use ancient torque over a sea gorget?

[Therin]

It wouldn't be a very good idea, no.

The Hachiryu Kote and Thunder Ring I can see, though, just to bring your DEX up to hit that cap. Every time you make a STR sacrifice you're losing potential damage on your non-critical hits, though, so it's hard to say exactly what balance would be most effective for a given event.

[Mojo]

It's blatantly obvious that the base critical hit rate for Raging Rush is critical to this comparison. It's almost silly to try and draw any conclusion without knowing this. A simple (yet time consuming) way to determine this value would be to go to Ronfaure on WAR/SAM and kill Wild Rabbits using Raging Rush (with 100% TP, you can rest two ticks after Meditate to get it down.) Record the number of crits/non-crits you got as well as the overall stats you had. It could take a while with just one person, but if everybody chips in, it wouldn't be so bad.

The next step, determining how additional TP affects Raging Rush crit %, would be the same test using a Martial Bhuj (or simply saving up 200% TP).

Also, the parses posted so far are useless. 3 tries with multihit weaponskills that have multiple degrees of randomness...

[Talint]

Where's Max? This is usually right up his alley, and he was the original one who told me I should be pushing my DEX/Crit Hits up and use RR instead of KJ.

[Starr]

It's blatantly obvious that the base critical hit rate for Raging Rush is critical to this comparison. It's almost silly to try and draw any conclusion without knowing this.

Also, the parses posted so far are useless. 3 tries with multihit weaponskills that have multiple degrees of randomness...

Couple of things I have already said, first in this thread and the next to a couple of PMs I am greatful to have received but the samples are way to small and both posters said themselves they are not fully complete with their sets, I hope people will listen to you. Conclusion of the thread is IMO that you should generally use RR if you have top gear, KJ might be better with fairly good STR gear and 2 Minuet or a good Chaos Roll.

That being said I don't want the thread to be over cus stuff like Thorny's math is really good to see, I would really like to see how Hachiryu legs do compare to Ares and then how far behind Warrior's Cuisses are for example.

I'd also like to see Drakesbane and Penta Thrust compared extensively where I think this is going to be the opposite of RR vs KJ and Drakes pulls ahead only with top gear but Penta is better for those without, and if Penta has Accuracy+ at 100% TP. I might be back soon so I could test some of them myself though.

[Mojo]

There is no solid conclusion you can come to without knowing.

[Starr]

Fair enough but I think it will come to that conclusion from what we have so far.

@Thorny, I understand your calculations but my average RR (no outside Attack buffs) was more like 1050 on Greater Colibri so how is that possible? Also does DA favour either WS more than another? I don't think it should but could those calculations be quickly redone for 21% DA? I have that with 10 base, 5 Brutal, 4 Merits and 2 Grip (arguable that Claymore for RR is better but ignore that for a moment). When I played I also only merited when I was 2boxing my COR so I always had Fighter's Roll but cus that's irregular we can ignore it for now.

[Thorny]

edit: double post, fucking isp

[Thorny]

Fair enough but I think it will come to that conclusion from what we have so far.

@Thorny, I understand your calculations but my average RR (no outside Attack buffs) was more like 1050 on Greater Colibri so how is that possible? Also does DA favour either WS more than another? I don't think it should but could those calculations be quickly redone for 21% DA? I have that with 10 base, 5 Brutal, 4 Merits and 2 Grip (arguable that Claymore for RR is better but ignore that for a moment). When I played I also only merited when I was 2boxing my COR so I always had Fighter's Roll but cus that's irregular we can ignore it for now.

21% DA is just *1.21 if you assume all 3 hits are capable of DAing.. which pushes it up to 957. The arguable part of this math is the critical rate, so if you can prove you normally average 1050 under exactly those circumstances that'd help your case for RR(yea, I know you're trying to say this is an unbiased thread but anyone can see you want RR to win).

Regarding iota/sea torque vs ancient/thunder ring, you're gaining 6 dex(and 0.5 acc) at a loss of 3.3% damage. If that's the last 6 dex you need to hit 50 ddex, it'll win.

[Starr]

Fridell posts here, he might have some parses of my WS dmg being 1050 on GC.

[Tubbers]

21% DA is just *1.21 if you assume all 3 hits are capable of DAing.. which pushes it up to 957. The arguable part of this math is the critical rate, so if you can prove you normally average 1050 under exactly those circumstances that'd help your case for RR(yea, I know you're trying to say this is an unbiased thread but anyone can see you want RR to win).

Regarding iota/sea torque vs ancient/thunder ring, you're gaining 6 dex(and 0.5 acc) at a loss of 3.3% damage. If that's the last 6 dex you need to hit 50 ddex, it'll win.

This seems quite accurate. I used this set: FFXIGEAR.com, missing WS gorget, 0 GA merits, 0 STR merits, 3 Agg 3 Bers 4 DA, I pulled up an old parse:

Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Tubbers
 - Raging Rush             176848   100.00 %     189/0   100.00 %    274/1875   935.70

The 21.3 DMG discrepancy (probably far more even) can easily be attributed to lack of GA / STR merits, uncapped acc while agg is down, and the fact that I wasn't riding timers 100% perfectly.

Totally unrelated to this, but for reference TP gear was: FFXIGEAR.com

[Ferien]

Not gonna vouch for Starr, but my RR average on Fer was consistently ~1000.

[Thorny]

Not gonna vouch for Starr, but my RR average on Fer was consistently ~1000.

without any attack buffs?