King's Justice vs Raging Rush

[Tsuko_Asura]

...but in this case s/he is most likely correct.

Most of us are still on the fence in this regard, the photographic evidence is just as confusing as the written mannerism.

[Max™]

Calling Max a math person is pretty laughable.

Max is a physics person who dabbles in pure mathematics to improve his understanding of the Universe.

The game math isn't exactly hard though, for the most part, and is mostly just arithmetic anyways. Far cry from the sorts of mathematics I'm studying.

[Thorny]

Max is a physics person who dabbles in pure mathematics to improve his understanding of the Universe.

The game math isn't exactly hard though, for the most part, and is mostly just arithmetic anyways. Far cry from the sorts of mathematics I'm studying.

I didn't say it was hard, but you seem pretty averse to backing up any of your posts with numbers. All of the claims you make are abstract and seemingly based on eyeballing, I have yet to see a truly informative post from you.

[Max™]

Really?

I guess I hallucinated all the random shit I've worked out on here.


I mean, shit, I just posted a bit of an explanation about how raging rush doesn't get the full +1.0 pDif boost from crits if you're in the 2.15 > 2.4 pDif range, and how KJ comes out better off in comparison.

Plus lots of random little bits of math here and there, but you're probably right, I've never posted anything helpful or informative ever.

[Thorny]

A tiny bit of information about something that's common knowledge, wheeee. My point is that 90% of your posts regarding FFXI are saying which piece of gear is better.. 30% of those are wrong, and none of them have anything to back it up past 'Max said so'.

[Max™]

90% of all statistics are 30% wrong.

I don't feel like explaining what's wrong with your statement, you have your opinion, I have mine, enough of the off topic shit, k?

[Masamune]

My contribution to this thread :

1st some maths starting with Thorny post @ page 3.

RR - no zerk/agg
124 str
119 dex
498 att
411 acc

lv81 colibri
1.25 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.17 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.21 cratio

RR - zerk/agg
124 str
119 dex
622 att
unnecessary acc

lv81 colibri
1.63 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.55 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.59 cratio

14 fSTR, 43 mod, 96 perdu base damage = 153 base dmg
153 * 3 = 459 * 1.59 = 729 + (proposed 34% crit rate if 100 tp gives 10%, capped ddex bonus, and 4% merits * 459)=156= 885 average with bergressor up * .95 acc = 840.75
459 * 1.21 = 555 + (same 156) = 711 average with bergressor down * .95 acc = 675.45
840.75 * .7(70% of the time) = 588.525
675.45 * .3(30% of the time) = 202.635
overall average = 791.16

KJ - no zerk/agg
129 str
99 dex
502 att
408 acc

Lv81 colibri
1.25 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.18 cratio
capped hitrate

avg: 1.21 cratio

KJ - zerk/agg
128 str
99 dex
646 att
unnecessary acc

lv81 colibri
1.70 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.62 cratio
capped hitrate

1.66 avg cratio

15 fstr 64 mod 96 base = 175 base dmg
175 * 3 = 525 * 1.66 = 871.5 * .95 acc = 827.925 avg with bergressor up
525 * 1.21 = 635.25 * .95 acc = 603.4875 avg with bergressor down
827.925 * .7 = 579.5475
603.4875 * .3 = 181.04625
overall average = 760.59

^ Best maths in this thread, palm for Thorny, but still needs some corrections :

--- Calculations with a RR set ---

Without zerk/agg :
124 str
119 dex
498 att
411 acc (capped WSaccuracy indeed, so irrelevant for the rest of calculations)

lv81 colibri
1.246 cratio (truncation @ 3rd digit, not 2nd)

lv82 colibri
1.172 cratio

Don't average yet, use average really when yu can't do otherwise, ie at the end of calculations.

With zerk/agg :
622 att

lv81 colibri
1.631 cratio
capped hitrate

lv82 colibri
1.552 cratio
capped hitrate

again don't average yet...

dSTR=124-67=57 => fSTR capped @ dSTRmax: fSTR=(57+4)/4=15.25 truncated @ 15 (which isnot 14)
Also you forgot WSalpha on WSmod, so 43.4 becomes 43.4*0.83 (for lvl75)=36
so... 15 fSTR, 36 mod, 96 perdu base damage = 147 base dmg for RR,
and 15 fSTR, 51 mod, 96 perdu base damage = 162 base dmg for KJ.

You also forgot to take into account fTP, especially since fTP applies only on 1st hit and not consecutive hits (and assuming Sea gorget ?), and also since in reality, yu never WS @ exactly 100% so (since again i don't know which gears yu used) i'll take example on my war/sam with an average WS TP return of 18.7% (accounting StoreTP/DA/Zanshin/misses etc...) which leads to a "Typical" WS readied @ 112% 6hits build. Notice i start averageing only here, with a DeltaTP~12%.
So regarding fTP, this DeltaTP won't change anything since RR has a fixed fTP multiplier of 1 @ 100/200/300 TP%; but will for RR's crit rate (a bit yu 'll say but still there...). For KJ on other hand, its fTP multipliers are resp. 1 1.250 and 1.5.
Ok here yu seem to consider only WSing as soon as TP100+% reached, so :
- fTP=1.1(with sea gorget) for RR,
- fTP=1.2ish for KJ (based on average WS typical TP readied and linear curve between 100%/200% anchors + sea gorget).

Now for the actual dmg calculations, i don't understand why yu just multiply base dmg by cRatio... should use pDIFs :

lvl81/82 Gcolis, without Berserk :
min PDIF = 0.995/0.906 (see why i didnot average cRatio above, or would get 1 here)
max PDIF = 1.495/1.406
min crit PDIF = 2.055/1.966
max crit PDIF = 2.555/2.466
lvl81/82 Gcolis, with Berserk :
min PDIF = 1.157/1.062
max PDIF = 1.957/1.862
min crit PDIF = 2.217/2.122
max crit PDIF = 3.017/2.922
(notice some poeple averages those PDIFs to simplify following calculations)

... which leads to dmg calculations :

lvl81 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit = floor(baseDMG*fTP*PDIF)
1st hit min = 147*1.1*0.995(1.157) = 160(187)
1st hit max = 147*1.1*1.495(1.957) = 241(316)
1st hit crit min = 147*1.1*2.055(2.217) = 332(358 )
1st hit crit max = 147*1.1*2.555(3.017) = 413(487)
Add. hits = floor(baseDMG*PDIF)
Add. hits min = 147*0.995(1.157) = 146(170)
Add. hits max = 147*1.495(1.957) = 219(287)
Add. hits crit min = 147*2.055(2.217) = 302(325)
Add. hits crit max = 147*2.555(3.017) = 375(443)

lvl82 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit min = 147*1.1*0.906(1.062) = 146(171)
1st hit max = 147*1.1*1.406(1.862) = 227(301)
1st hit crit min = 147*1.1*1.966(2.122) = 317(343)
1st hit crit max = 147*1.1*2.466(2.922) = 398(472)
Add. hits min = 147*0.906(1.062) = 133(156)
Add. hits max = 147*1.406(1.862) = 206(273)
Add. hits crit min = 147*1.966(2.122) = 289(311)
Add. hits crit max = 147*2.466(2.922) = 362(429)

lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit min = 162*1.2*0.995(1.157) = 193(224)
1st hit max = 162*1.2*1.495(1.957) = 290(380)
1st hit crit min = 162*1.2*2.055(2.217) = 399(430)
1st hit crit max = 162*1.2*2.555(3.017) = 496(586)
Add. hits min = 162*0.995(1.157) = 161(187)
Add. hits max = 162*1.495(1.957) = 242(317)
Add. hits crit min = 162*2.055(2.217) = 332(359)
Add. hits crit max = 162*2.555(3.017) = 413(488 )

lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit min = 162*1.2*0.906(1.062) = 176(206)
1st hit max = 162*1.2*1.406(1.862) = 273(361)
1st hit crit min = 162*1.2*1.966(2.122) = 382(412)
1st hit crit max = 162*1.2*2.466(2.922) = 479(568 )
Add. hits min = 162*0.906(1.062) = 146(172)
Add. hits max = 162*1.406(1.862) = 227(301)
Add. hits crit min = 162*1.966(2.122) = 318(343)
Add. hits crit max = 162*2.466(2.922) = 399(473)

Now the hard part: how to "gather together" all these values into some global average number, accounting for accuracy and crit rate (main comparison arguement between RR/KJ) ?

With capped ddex bonus and 4% merits(24% natural critrate) AND DeltaTP~12%, since we don't know for sure the 100%/200% anchors values for RR's added critrate, let's ASSUME 10% @100% and 20% @ 200% =>

DeltaTP~12% gives another 1% crit rate for RR :
- for RR: [1stHITavg*(1-35%)+1stHITcritavg*35% + 2* (AddHITavg*(1-35%)+AddHITcritavg*35%)]*95%
- for KJ: [1stHITavg*(1-24%)+1stHITcritavg*24% + 2* (AddHITavg*(1-24%)+AddHITcritavg*24%)]*95%
- for KJ without Natural Crit Rate (NCR): [1stHITavg + 2*AddHITavg]*95%

lvl81 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 698.15(833.34)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 794.48(948.24)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 612.27(765.7)

lvl82 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 659.82(792.18 )
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 750.5(901.38 )
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 567.62(718.67)

At this point in calculations, we shouldnot average further, because it's very hard to parse correctly the # of times yu hit each of these values during a PT. For example, the approximation "Berserk up 70%

of the time" is most of the time wrong, even theoritically it is 66.67% so should be way lower considering downtime between mobs for example.
Secondly, i noticed pretty much ALL parses posted don't make distinction between levels/type of mobs, they invalidating themselves already useless to post right there, like Mojo said btw. So please in

KParser select "Greater Colibri(144)" (for lvl82) and "Greater Colibri(128 )" (for lvl81). Colibris and Lesser Colibris work also.
3rdly, ALL parses never mention DEBUFFS used/received, especially Dia, i thrown in wastebin like 5 parses fucked because rdm or brds decided to dia mobs for giggles... also not easy to convince them to NOT use dia XD but thats offtopic. This is also true for ANY debuff lowering mob's AGI and/or def. Same on mob side: MJSP camp is BAD because of Puk's Obfuscate, Wyvern's paralyse/dispelga, infiltrator's blind, Mamools' eva boost etc...
4tly, for BUFFS used, COR's rolls should be avoided because of its randomness, BRD PTs only. Also gotta be very careful with yur own buffs, Warcry+savagery comes to mind, Hasso also...
5tly, the problem of holding TP when mob is like 10% fuck WS numbers also, gotta turn and WS right at beginning of next mob. I bet noone do that when posting his parse ?
And finally, sample size ideally should be 100+ WSs for each RR and KJ in same parse, and for a given mob's lvl. So for an average WS time of ~30secs (or 1WS per mob), would ideally require a parse on 200+

mobs (100+ for each RR/KJ)

Conclusion : Main assumptions used for these calculations are RR's base crit rate @ 100%/200%TP, and NCR for non-crit WS.


--- Calculations with a KJ set ---

KJ - no(with) Berserk
129 str
99 dex
502(627) att (not 646 with berserk? typo?)
408 acc (capped WSaccuracy)

Lv81/82 Gcolibri - no(with) Berserk
1.259/1.185(1.647/1.567) cRatio

dSTR=129-67=62 => fSTR capped @ dSTRmax: fSTR=(62+4)/4=16.5 truncated @ 16
WSmod 64.5*0.83=53
=> 16 fSTR, 53 mod, 96 perdu base damage = 165 base dmg for KJ,

fTP=1.2

lvl81/82 Gcolis, without(with) Berserk :
min PDIF = 1/0.922 (1.176/1.080)
max PDIF = 1.511/1.422 (1.976/1.880)
min crit PDIF = 2.060/1.982 (2.236/2.140)
max crit PDIF = 2.571/2.482 (3.036/2.940)

lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit min = 165*1.2*1(1.176) = 198(232)
1st hit max = 165*1.2*1.511(1.976) = 299(391)
1st hit crit min = 165*1.2*2.060(2.236) = 407(442)
1st hit crit max = 165*1.2*2.571(3.036) = 509(601)
Add. hits min = 165*1(1.176) = 165(194)
Add. hits max = 165*1.511(1.976) = 249(326)
Add. hits crit min = 165*2.060(2.236) = 339(368 )
Add. hits crit max = 165*2.571(3.036) = 424(500)

lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) :
1st hit min = 165*1.2*0.922(1.080) = 182(213)
1st hit max = 165*1.2*1.422(1.880) = 281(372)
1st hit crit min = 165*1.2*1.980(2.140) = 392(423)
1st hit crit max = 165*1.2*2.482(2.940) = 491(582)
Add. hits min = 165*0.922(1.080) = 152(178 )
Add. hits max = 165*1.422(1.880) = 234(310)
Add. hits crit min = 165*1.980(2.140) = 326(353)
Add. hits crit max = 165*2.482(2.940) = 409(485)

lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 756.71(917.15)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 629.38(789.92)

lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 714.08(869.16)
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 586.63(741.48 )

--- SUMMARY ---

RR set : KJ set :
124 str 129 str
119 dex 99 dex
498(622) att 502(627) att
411 acc 408 acc

lvl81 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 698.15(833.34)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 756.71(917.15)
lvl81 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 629.38(789.92)

lvl82 Gcolis, RR - without(with Berserk) : 659.82(792.18 )
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ - without(with Berserk) : 714.08(869.16)
lvl82 Gcolis, KJ(no NCR) - no/w Berserk : 586.63(741.48 )

Sorry for the long post i don't know how to use spoiler tag, but i hope i didnot make any mistakes to help discussions on this topic. Feel free to ask clarifications/point errors.

Edit: i'll post later a parse i have which im using for other verifications on my dmg calc, but still can show (limit tho since i WSd in TPgears) how is an exploitable parse.

[Max™]

Good math... except I don't know why you mention crits in KJ, since it can't crit outside of 2hring it.

[Yugl]

Good math... except I don't know why you mention crits in KJ, since it can't crit outside of 2hring it.

WAR/THF obviously!

[Starr]

lol poor guy, such a huge effort but KJ can't crit

[Masamune]

Alright then. Does anybody have new cRatio > pDIF values for two handed weapons? I know that it was changed a while ago and that wiki is no longer accurate. I tried browsing through SG but I can't read Japanese, so it didn't do much good.

cRatio cap @ 2.064, instead of 2
critPDIF = +1.06 instead of +1
max PDIF crit = 3.15

the rest are same old formulas. matches pretty well my dot numbers on war GA/axe, got this info from Skeedo @ MNK KI forum.

[Masamune]

mmm guess poeple didnot read more carefully :

i said i was ASSUMING KJ could use NATURAL critrate (same as for normal dot hits).
Also i including KJ calculations WITHOUT crits since it is an ASSUMPTION.

maybe with CAPS WORDS poeple like starr can read, "poor loltawu"

[Masamune]

Good math... except I don't know why you mention crits in KJ, since it can't crit outside of 2hring it.

yea i know, but i never managed to match my high numbers on KJ... so either it can crit somehow or i forgot something else, i don't know.

EDIT: nvm i reviewed my math i found a stupid typo... its ok my high parsed matches calculated numbers now, without crits on KJ.

[Thorny]

yea i know, but i never managed to match my high numbers on KJ... so either it can crit somehow or i forgot something else, i don't know.

WS that don't have a crit TP mod can't crit unless you SA them. As pdif values are all proportional to cratio, it's a bunch of unnecessary showboating to list possible pdifs instead of just sticking with cratio when trying to show which weaponskill is superior. Regardless, good info on new caps if it's accurate.

[Jeryhn]

I did a deal on this in What's Better or Randomer a while back with Sath and I were talking about it, I found the way to go was to use KJ with Bergressor up and RR with it down, I've stuck to that since then and my parses have made me happy in the pants.

Not a melee (unless you count Atonement PLD as one, wheeee!), but it was my understanding that this was true, pretty much ever since KJ became available.

[Starr]

As pdif values are all proportional to cratio

You sure? I'll elaborate tomorrow.

Not a melee (unless you count Atonement PLD as one, wheeee!), but it was my understanding that this was true, pretty much ever since KJ became available.
Yesterday 10:35 PM

Your understanding based on what if you have never levelled or played WAR?

[TybudX]

Your understanding based on what if you have never levelled or played WAR?

If leveling a job was a prerequisite for understanding there wouldn't be 800+ pages of gimped players in the media section.

[Yugl]

If leveling a job was a prerequisite for understanding there wouldn't be 800+ pages of gimped players in the media section.

That and he wouldn't praise Thorny like he's the Bible (Note: I have np with Thorny doing his numbers).

[bsphil]

So does anyone know why KJ randomly spikes abnormally high, then?

[Yugl]

So does anyone know why KJ randomly spikes abnormally high, then?

This was discussed a bit in Randomers Thread without a conclusive resolve, but most agreed that the random spike occurred during Double Dark Weather areas (Einherjar/Dynamis/Apollyon).