The Koran -- Serious business.

[ZarakiKujata]

Why not both?

Then you are a dirty apostate that will go to Hell and never get to appreciate Allah in all his magnificence in Heaven.

[wop]

mutually exclusive

if you're islam, you can have many underaged brides but no pork
if you're not islam, you can have one underaged bride with pork

?

[Tricen]

How do I know this heaven exists?

[Elvis]

So I guess the Queen of England's testimony in a British court of law is worth half that of testimony from Prince Charles? And it would also be cool if Prince William or Harry had a daughter that they then married off at the age of 6? And her new husband had relations with her at the age of 9?

In Islam, does it say 6-9 year olds are fair game? This might be cultural (and even then, where and why?) in the ME (I dunno about 6-9, but 'young' in general.).

I've seen in my college sociology book a picture of a dude about 24 years of age and a young girl around 13 I think - who were married. This was during the Dust Bowl era I think...I'll have to look the book up. If anyone here took sociology and had this same book, feel free to confirm!

Firas is the only Muslim on our forum? If he is - do you guys expect to get all the answers from him? wop clearly has an xbox level of knowledge about Islam and is behaving accordingly.

Moderate Muslims exist - they aren't the ones you keep bringing up and then mock as 'moderate'. This hasn't been a debate for a couple of pages now. It's just disrespectful at this point. BTW - showing that secular civilized 'respect' is not the same as expressing sympathy for the crazies. Of course we're on the Internet though.

EDIT:

I know about the Prophet Muhammad and yada yada yada, Aisha(sp?).

[wop]

"Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the last day… Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

wop clearly has an xbox level of knowledge about Islam and is behaving accordingly.

wut, I've lived in a Muslim country for 16+ years before moving to the UK to escape it all. I know how it works.

[Mayareira]

wut, I've lived in a Muslim country for 16+ years before moving to the UK to escape it all. I know how it works.

Mind if I ask you which country was that? Most of them are under the control of strict and corrupt regimes which ultimately leads to several "misunderstandings".

[Faris]

So I guess the Queen of England's testimony in a British court of law is worth half that of testimony from Prince Charles? And it would also be cool if Prince William or Harry had a daughter that they then married off at the age of 6? And her new husband had relations with her at the age of 9?

a woman's testimony is half of a man, is a total misconception of Islam, not true.


The Prophet (PBUH) had numerous reasons behind his marriage to Aisha (RAA), it was never a marriage of pleasure. (im really busy with work to lookup the exact reasons behind it)

she was very proud and happy of the marriage, until she died, never did she once say anything bad about the Prophet (PBUH) or that he mis-treated her in anyway.

[wop]

Malaysia.

Country where if you are Islam:-

-and buys a house, instant 5-15% discount vs non-islam (it's called Bumiputra discount)

-can join their BANK ISLAM (Tabung Haji) bank (other races can't open account in this special bank)... LOTS of perks, siphoning billions into "free loans"

-80-90% of students in universities in Malaysia must be Islam. If you're not, either study abroad, or come out and start working (majority of the commoners)

-Malaysia's National Fatwa Council, one of the country's highest Islamic bodies, banning yoga for Muslims after a university lecturer advised people to stop practising it for fear that it could deviate from the teachings of Islam.

-National Fatwa Council has issued rulings forbidding Muslims from using botox and women from entering beauty pageants.

-Banned women from exhibiting tomboy behaviour, which it defined as behaving or dressing like men or taking part in lesbian sex. <-----NOT A JOKE £1000 fine by the way

the list just goes on and on

[Elvis]

"Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the last day… Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

wut, I've lived in a Muslim country for 16+ years before moving to the UK to escape it all. I know how it works.

Simply living there doesn't mean you're an Islamic scholar. That doesn't mean you know *nothing*. I was just kidding anyways.

You probably know something about the culture.

Religious scholars usually give some more detail in their analysis. Drawing on history as well and not simply dealing w/ the text in such a facetious manner.

[Faris]

Malaysia.

Country where if you are Islam:-

-and buys a house, instant 5-15% discount vs non-islam (it's called Bumiputra discount)

-can join their BANK ISLAM (Tabung Haji) bank (other races can't open account in this special bank)... LOTS of perks, siphoning billions into "free loans"

-80-90% of students in universities in Malaysia must be Islam. If you're not, either study abroad, or come out and start working (majority of the commoners)

the list just goes on and on

read what you're saying lol, its the country's law, not the religion's fault. And to be honest, i dont think thats right to do in Islam.


P.S: i think you do have an xbox level of knowledge about the religion if you cant differentiate whats the name of the follower and the religion..no offence, thats what your showing me.

ISLAM = the religion
MUSLIMS = follower of Islam
"if you are Islam" lol

[ZarakiKujata]

In Islam, does it say 6-9 year olds are fair game? This might be cultural (and even then, where and why?) in the ME (I dunno about 6-9, but 'young' in general.).

I know about the Prophet Muhammad and yada yada yada, Aisha(sp?).

I think there has been some stigma associated w/ the practice in recent years b/c of that ~8 year old girl getting a divorce in Saudi Arabia, but clearly the practice goes on and we can never be too sure how many girls go unnoticed, but yeah I was mainly talking about Aisha for arguments sake since equating the treatment of women in Islamic countries to how the queen of England is treated is incredibly intellectually perverted/dishonest if not completely false and I was trying to make a point.

[wop]

read what you're saying lol, its the country's law, not the religion's fault. And to be honest, i dont think thats right to do in Islam.

The country's law is governed by strict religion rules.

[Elvis]

Malaysia.

Country where if you are Islam:-

-and buys a house, instant 5-15% discount vs non-islam (it's called Bumiputra discount)

-can join their BANK ISLAM (Tabung Haji) bank (other races can't open account in this special bank)... LOTS of perks, siphoning billions into "free loans"

-80-90% of students in universities in Malaysia must be Islam. If you're not, either study abroad, or come out and start working (majority of the commoners)

the list just goes on and on

Does this mean that it's Islam's fault? In the Quran, are all the rules and regulations you just mentioned - justified? And that's the hard part. You have to actually EXPLAIN that. You can't just cite something from the Quran and be done with it.

Most stuff in religious texts will seem insane for the modern era - sometimes due to the time difference and sometimes due to the language which is really just poetry. There is historical context as well.

On the flipside - should we blame Judaism (in general) for the things the 'Jewish State' does? Israel has a 'Law of Return' for Jews. However, it refuses to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. They were expelled (and some fled) from their land/houses during the 1948 War.

Israel was accepted into the UN under the condition that it would recognize this right. They have not done so. As we speak they are ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem. They are continuing to expand settlements in the West Bank.

Are all these things a reason to hate Jews? Frequently Zionists say that there is no difference between their political ideology and Judaism the religion.

There are also special laws for Jews in Israel.

[Elvis]

I think there has been some stigma associated w/ the practice in recent years b/c of that ~8 year old girl getting a divorce in Saudi Arabia, but clearly the practice goes on and we can never be too sure how many girls go unnoticed, but yeah I was mainly talking about Aisha for arguments sake since equating the treatment of women in Islamic countries to how the queen of England is treated is incredibly intellectually perverted/dishonest if not completely false and I was trying to make a point.

Sure - but is it part of the culture or supported by the text?

And unless it is quite explicit I do not see how this relates to Islam exclusively.

For example there were Jews in the ME who were an equivalent of the 'burka'.

[ZarakiKujata]

a woman's testimony is half of a man, is a total misconception of Islam, not true.

So if its not true, how is it misconceived/mistranslated?

The Prophet (PBUH) had numerous reasons behind his marriage to Aisha (RAA), it was never a marriage of pleasure. (im really busy with work to lookup the exact reasons behind it)

Come back to us with what those are because I can see almost no ancient or modern line of logical reasoning to justify marrying a 6 year old, and even if there were some astronomically impossible series of events that could justify doing so, why then consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old?

she was very proud and happy of the marriage, until she died, never did she once say anything bad about the Prophet (PBUH) or that he mis-treated her in anyway.

Yes, because the Koran, Tanakh, and New Testament are all books written by men for men. So the notion that these men could know in any way what this girl/woman or what any woman was thinking is a bit laughable. Further, all these books were largely written after the subjects of the 'stories' had passed away, so how could they know what any of them would have thought man or woman. Finally, looking at how these texts disparage women in general regarding cleanliness and holiness I would seriously call into question anything they would have to say.

[Elvis]

The Jewish version of the Muslim 'hijab' - the 'frumka' ( or 'stirntikhl' I believe) :
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NO_obIoVcR...ewishhijab.JPG

And the 'hijab' :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__BdubNlqYt...e-hijab-15.jpg

BTW - this is not what I'm talking about. I saw a picture of a Jewish women covered head to toe and she was not a Muslim. She was a religious Jew (not simply ethnic Jew).

It was obviously an old picture but not 300 AD old.

[Faris]

I think there has been some stigma associated w/ the practice in recent years b/c of that ~8 year old girl getting a divorce in Saudi Arabia, but clearly the practice goes on and we can never be too sure how many girls go unnoticed, but yeah I was mainly talking about Aisha for arguments sake since equating the treatment of women in Islamic countries to how the queen of England is treated is incredibly intellectually perverted/dishonest if not completely false and I was trying to make a point.

i completely agree with you, in most (Muslim) countries women are belittled because of gender. you're really mixing things up though, i'm talking about what the Quran and the Porphet (PBUH) teaches...its really completely the opposite of what we; the modern muslims are doing.

its a clash between Arabic culture and the religion, that we are facing.
before islam, it was a shame to have a girl, some families used to bury their baby girls alive..this ideology (i believe still haunts us) that women are inferior. When Islam came, it gave women rights of all kinds, taught us that a woman is equal to a man, it taught us that she is blessed with many great responsibilities a man cannot have, and to never underestimate a woman, because they are great, it literally mentions that in the Quran.

[Faris]

ill be afk for hours, sorry.

about women, no1 says it better than ahmed deedat, i love that guy. May God rest his soul.

[wop]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__BdubNlqYt...e-hijab-15.jpg

She's wearing makeup, "form of attraction, and it blocks water from touching some parts of the body (nail polish for example) which in return nullifies a muslim's prayer" (direct quote from Firas)

40 whips and stone her NOW

Jokes aside, I'm happy that Koran or Korean whatever aren't playing a significant part in my life at the moment.

[ZarakiKujata]

Sure - but is it part of the culture or supported by the text?

I think there is a presence of marrying women when they are young throughout the numerous cultures of the Middle East. Having not read the Koran the only support in the text I can name again is Aisha but that is pretty strong support in my opinion considering the father of the religion supposedly did it. I do think that the practice has diminished within the last ~50 some odd years as the ME has become more politically and economically integrated with the West they probably don't want to look too unseemly by the most basic Western standards.

And unless it is quite explicit I do not see how this relates to Islam exclusively.

For example there were Jews in the ME who were an equivalent of the 'burka'.

There still plenty of orthodox jews that do so, or at least wear something closer to an Iranian style hejab where you can see the woman's face/little hair but nothing more because again they have needed to integrate with Western society. In general I find both religions to be culturally similiar in large part due to their Semitic nomadic desert origins with stuff like unmarried women can not be alone with a man after sundown. But, there is nothing in the Jewish Bible(Tanakh) to my knowledge that is as extreme as what is present in the Koran(i.e. any instances of male initiated statutory rape). Likewise, while there are plenty of moderate Muslim clerics that have reconciled many modern practices with the religion, I think the fact that Judaism has from the start been about having a critical dialogue with Yahweh whereas Islam is first and foremost about submitting to Allah's will means that aspects of the Koran that go beyond the shared cultural history of misogyny that both religions share and become exclusive to Islam.