The Koran -- Serious business.

[Elvis]

I think there is a presence of marrying women when they are young throughout the numerous cultures of the Middle East. Having not read the Koran the only support in the text I can name again is Aisha but that is pretty strong support in my opinion considering the father of the religion supposedly did it. I do think that the practice has diminished within the last ~50 some odd years as the ME has become more politically and economically integrated with the West they probably don't want to look too unseemly by the most basic Western standards.

There still plenty of orthodox jews that do so, or at least wear something closer to an Iranian style hejab where you can see the woman's face/little hair but nothing more because again they have needed to integrate with Western society. In general I find both religions to be culturally similiar in large part due to their Semitic nomadic desert origins with stuff like unmarried women can not be alone with a man after sundown. But, there is nothing in the Jewish Bible(Tanakh) to my knowledge that is as extreme as what is present in the Koran(i.e. any instances of male initiated statutory rape). Likewise, while there are plenty of moderate Muslim clerics that have reconciled many modern practices with the religion, I think the fact that Judaism has from the start been about having a critical dialogue with Yahweh whereas Islam is first and foremost about submitting to Allah's will means that aspects of the Koran that go beyond the shared cultural history of misogyny that both religions share and become exclusive to Islam.

@First bold - I think if it were supported by the text, then we'd see it spammed here like every other 'gotcha' type of response to myself or Firas.

I'm not trying to say no violence exists in Islam (violence exists in all religion and in the texts).

You will have to prove that the marriage to 6-9 year olds is justified by the religious texts and not a product of the culture.

That does not diminish the significance of Mohammed's relationship w/ Aisha however, and I acknowledge that that itself would be influential to modern-day (but fundamentalist) Muslims.

@Second bold - You have not read the Quran. Have you read the Torah and the Talmud (right?)? You might have an impression of Islam which should not be dismissed off the bat. However, if we're talking about how religion is and not what it should be - then all religious folk are 'doing it wrong'.

Like, if you're basing your conclusion on the violence and oppression then I can understand (but not agree) but you're also dismissing all the good stuff and there ARE good things about Islam as well.

Again, we're just having a rhetorical argument here.

We can maybe discuss the culture but no one here is an Islamic scholar.

[Zethren]

since when did we impose the practice or belief of islam on any non-muslim?

Elvis, you being Indian, I am surprised you are not challenging this.

[Elvis]

I don't know much about that conflict. I vaguely recall a quote from an Arab general like hundreds of years ago saying that if the people of blah blah accepted Islam they would be doing the obvious and if they did not it would be taught to them. I don't have the source or anything.

My perspective on what Firas has said there is that I believe there is a good chance Islam has been imposed on people - but does that mean it's supposed to be that way?

I think in Somalia (I think, I can double-check this easy, it was only just recently in the news) - sharia law was being enforced aggressively. This was a place that was predominantly Sufi Islam...

Again I should double-check that. I'll look on my YouTube page because I bookmarked the video (from Al Jazeera).

As to the Hindu vs. Muslim thing you're alluding to, there has been tremendous violence against Muslims as well! Not just murder. But gang-rapes and blah blah.

But I won't discuss it because I do not know the politics behind it all. I can make superficial statements which are essentially: "Oh yea? Hinduism did this [then go into detail and cite the atrocities]! Take that!"

[Tyr]

I tried to read this thread, but really couldn't stand it past page four (not going to point fingers or ridicule anyone).

I'm intrigued by the approach of "religion is inherently bad," when religion is often times a stigmatized term that applies to "one's belief system." If you consider religion as a 'way of life' or 'system of belief,' those 101-definitions, then really, you're lending yourself to too many generalizations, and failing to realize that what you dogmatically appeal to in itself is in some way, a 'religion' -- just by a different name.

When Nietzsche's madman says "god is dead," his point is not to become a banner for atheism. Rather, an apt interpretation of the famous parable notes that "god is dead, and we have replaced 'him' with other things." That we now appeal to some other "higher authority" (science, self-help programs, whatever you think will do the trick) -- something of that sort.

There's this subtle implication that "once you detach from the evils of a religion, you're a free thinker and among the best human beings!" which I think is absurd. And what irks me further is that some refuse to critically look at their own approaches, and how dogmatically they cling to them.

None of this is to excuse crimes committed in the name of so-and-so, in any capacity...but dialogue breaks when one refuses to understand the complexities of humans, and to generalize to serve an ulterior motive.

I also enjoyed how some consider themselves experts in a particular religion -- now to break from the generalities - Neo, what exactly do you know about Islam, that you haven't been spoonfed by people with an ulterior agenda, to make claims of "it's Islam that's the problem?"

Keep in mind that "Islam" is a term that applies to some 2-billion people, and has something close-to-70 denominations. If you're going to begin with "I don't need to look into Islam, because it is a religion, and all religions are bad," then there is no point to argue, and dialogue would be fruitless, if even possible.

[Tyr]

Sorry for the double-post, but I forgot to mention this:

As a Muslim (and I consider myself to be religious and I am from a religious family), I condemn outright such actions (OP) done in the name of Islam, as much is my responsibility.

I am not seeking to at all justify their actions, however, with this condemnation. I don't plan to defend what Muslims do rather what Islam says (specifically Ithna-'Ashari Shi'a Islam, because that is what I am a part of and familiar with, and I have many doctrinal qualms with some other denominations of Islam).

To begin a discussion with "why did the people of your religion do this!?" just becomes one of opportunistic finger-pointing. You can replace "your religion" with race, nationality, pretty much anything...

[Neosutra]

To begin a discussion with "why did the people of your religion do this!?" just becomes one of opportunistic finger-pointing. You can replace "your religion" with race, nationality, pretty much anything...

Except when a race or nationality does these things, they can eventually be stopped via economic/cultural progress (and happen a lot less). Religious oppression continues throughout time.

You have entire regions of the world now where this behavior is acceptable. Where women are viewed as sub human. Where theistic government rules every aspect of your life.

So yes, excuse us for saying "why did the people of your religion do this?!", but it is a continued problem, it is a HUGE problem, and it is spreading.

[Faris]

specifically Ithna-'Ashari Shi'a Islam

oh wow >_> you guys have any sites or any reference i can read? I'm interested. double wow, you're in bismarck too, whats your character's name?


I dont know much about your sect Tyr, but in Sunna; Islam teaches us how to live our lives.

You have entire regions of the world now where this behavior is acceptable. Where women are viewed as sub human. Where theistic government rules every aspect of your life.

do you even read what we said/explained in previous posts? or are you just being yourself again, completely ignoring what everyone says and aggressively trying to shove your standards/beliefs in everyone's throat?

[Tyr]

Except when a race or nationality does these things, they can eventually be stopped via economic/cultural progress (and happen a lot less). Religious oppression continues throughout time.

You have entire regions of the world now where this behavior is acceptable. Where women are viewed as sub human. Where theistic government rules every aspect of your life.

So yes, excuse us for saying "why did the people of your religion do this?!", but it is a continued problem, it is a HUGE problem, and it is spreading.

Because we no longer have racism, right? Or conflicts stemming from nationalism? Ethnic conflicts are totally a thing of the past. Really?

oh wow >_> you guys have any sites or any reference i can read? I'm interested.


I dont know much about your sect Tyr, but in Sunna; Islam teaches us how to live our lives.

1) I don't have any 'sites' do wholly advocate, there's a serious deficiency of good material on the internet, unfortunately. For book references? What in particular are you looking for? And are you a fluent reader in Arabic, or do you prefer English?

2) "Islam teaches us how to live our lives" -- what is that really referring to?

[Elvis]

Except when a race or nationality does these things, they can eventually be stopped via economic/cultural progress (and happen a lot less). Religious oppression continues throughout time.

You have entire regions of the world now where this behavior is acceptable. Where women are viewed as sub human. Where theistic government rules every aspect of your life.

So yes, excuse us for saying "why did the people of your religion do this?!", but it is a continued problem, it is a HUGE problem, and it is spreading.

This is a very weak line.

The ideology is the point (your premise)- not the manifestation carrying it out.

Sure, colonialism is mostly gone. Israel is still practicing colonialism. So was Indonesia for a time until fairly recently. There are some other examples people will not have heard of.

So some ideologies do become taboo. However, religion is a way of life.

Religion can exist alongside secular and progressive reform.

It is possible that a more (relatively speaking) secular/progressive Islam can arise. Just as the other religions were able to accommodate that change (not happily by choice though, through struggle).

Terrorism increased after the Iraq War began. I think all these wars and blah blah are radicalizing the ME further. It's difficult to see how change will come about - but it's still possible. These people are not aliens - they are like us.

I think this discussion has been mostly shallow thus far and it dehumanizes Muslims and Arabs. (Even though we're talking about those which use their religion to control and in a way dehumanize, others.)

[Faris]

1) I don't have any 'sites' do wholly advocate, there's a serious deficiency of good material on the internet, unfortunately. For book references? What in particular are you looking for? And are you a fluent reader in Arabic, or do you prefer English?

2) "Islam teaches us how to live our lives" -- what is that really referring to?

Arabic onry books plz.

when you said something about Islam being not a "way of life"; maybe i misunderstood you, sorry.

[Kajii]

For what it's worth...
My family and I go to Jordan once every year, usually during the summer. Been doing this since around 1995. Women don't get stoned for walking around with a hijab and women are allowed to do anything a man can.

I talk to a lot of the girls there and none of them seem unhappy or oppressed. I usually ask everyone there if they'd come to America if they had the chance, more than half the girls wouldn't because they "love Jordan." Education is a huge thing in Jordan, the average guy/girl completes college, so despite what you may think, women aren't there sitting in the kitchen all day since birth and nothing else.

I don't know much about other Muslim countries, but that's how things are in Jordan. Just wanted to throw that in there.

edit: Worst thing I ever saw was some punk hit his sister for lying about something, I don't remember what it was. The Koran doesn't say a single thing about beating women if they lie, but surely he did it because of his religion, right? Beating women for lying never happens in ANY US state, AMIRITE? Also, a bunch of guys got on that guy's case immediately and his dad beat his ass iirc.

[Neosutra]

Religion can exist alongside secular and progressive reform.

Fighting it every step of the way you mean.

Just because secular and progressive reform is inevitable as education of any society increases (and thus religious tenacity decreases), doesnt mean that such reform wouldnt have been possible much earlier had that religion not been there. The fact that religion remains in these areas where they are no longer needed (and had been oppressing the people for centuries before reformation) just shows the stigmatic behavior of this psychosis.

Should I start citing examples of religion hampering scientific and cultural progress, or are they too obvious to really waste time on?

Religious "reformation" carries no benefit, and only allows for easy subjegation of the followers once they are converted. Secular/cultural reform comes hand and hand with enlightenment and social evolution.

There was a time of great religious reformation and conversion on our planet. It was called the dark ages.

Edit: And to Kajii's post above me. 13 year old girls married to polygamist in Utah dont feel oppressed either. Just because a culture teaches subjegation doesnt mean it is right.

[Erza]

Wis. jury: Father guilty in prayer death case - Yahoo! News

A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/files...g-nothing1.jpg

I really really hate religion

[Neosutra]

But religion didnt cause her to die, because people die all the time. You cant blame religion for her death.

Am I doing it right?

[Erza]

Yea Neo you're on the right track, religion doesn't kill people, people do!

[zoobernut]

No the correct way is to say that: religion did not cause her to die it is not religions responsibility that they acted incorrectly because the religion itself doesn't teach to not take care of yourself.

[Neosutra]

No the correct way is to say that: religion did not cause her to die it is not religions responsibility that they acted incorrectly because the religion itself doesn't teach to not take care of yourself.

There we go, a winna!

[Elvis]

Fighting it every step of the way you mean.

Just because secular and progressive reform is inevitable as education of any society increases (and thus religious tenacity decreases), doesnt mean that such reform wouldnt have been possible much earlier had that religion not been there. The fact that religion remains in these areas where they are no longer needed (and had been oppressing the people for centuries before reformation) just shows the stigmatic behavior of this psychosis.

Should I start citing examples of religion hampering scientific and cultural progress, or are they too obvious to really waste time on?

Religious "reformation" carries no benefit, and only allows for easy subjegation of the followers once they are converted. Secular/cultural reform comes hand and hand with enlightenment and social evolution.

There was a time of great religious reformation and conversion on our planet. It was called the dark ages.

Edit: And to Kajii's post above me. 13 year old girls married to polygamist in Utah dont feel oppressed either. Just because a culture teaches subjegation doesnt mean it is right.

Your argument works if only we view religion as a monolith.

Do you have some statistics on Islam/Christianity/etc. in Lebanon?

I think I said in an earlier post that religion and secularism have to struggle to coexist. Or perhaps it was the progressive reforms in general.

Anyways, it's possible to be secular and Islamic but the standard changes. Otherwise there is no true Christian/Jew/Muslim/etc.

I am not saying how it should be (no religion). I'm saying that it is possible for these belief systems to coexist. And you're not going to get an atheistic world anytime soon. So you have to work within the standards of the day right now.

This is like your argument awhile back on religious deaths versus atheist deaths. It's just too broad a subject to debate. Not to mention you ignore the other variables at work that led to the deaths and you see no overlap and blah blah blah this is getting stupid.

[Plow]

Hey guys I think I'm going to start making a thread every time a religious organization does something extreme... ly positive.


You guys won't mind if every thread on BG is about religious charities from now until it shuts down, right?


Oh, but people and charities do good things without religion, they don't need religion to do good things.

On the other hand, whenever they do something bad, it's 100% religion's fault and indisputable evidence that religion should be abolished.


Do I have it right now?

[zoobernut]

That really seems to be the basis against all religious based violence and evils in the world is that the religion can always keep its proverbial hands clean because if people do something in the name of that religion it is not the religions fault if the religion did not specifically ask them to do it.

But that is like giving a monkey a gun and asking it to not fling poo at you. Of course it will fling poo to get its point across eventually. You really should just not give it the gun in the first place.