The Koran -- Serious business.

[Faris]

What is your response to my analogy with the neighbour who has a bakery? Is it right for someone else to board up their house and tell them when to cook their nice smelling food?

what? nice smelling food can be shared, you wanna share your woman? try another example please. Women and nice smelling food are very far apart.

You must know that muslims live in europe and other westernized parts of the world and it appears that even with all those women walking around in western dress that they aren't non stop rapists. These muslim men seem to have more than enough control over their bodies that these problems aren't occurring.

you're exagerrating, raping is an extreme case, you get many other results from such "freedom".

God created Brazilians with the same sexual instincts and you don't see their beaches being giant orgies do you?

I dont understand this statement..brazilians are known to be "free" sexually, no boundaries. how is that relevant to the issue of women covering?


overall, im not quite clear what you're saying here, are you denying the fact that the attraction of women to men is non-existent? that women can walk around almost naked, and it would have zero effect on men?? its this modernization that tells us: "oh its ok, women can wear this, and you should accept it in your heart"
yea right, im married and everytime i go past a good looking girl in the mall, i gotta check out her ass, i know i shouldnt, but its just..i cant, i gotta look. i gotta rate that ass, even if it was the president's wife and her cleavage is showing you're going to look and you're going to mentally comment on it. its human nature. and ask ANY guy, noone here can deny that.

P.S: sheikh deedat spoke about the west, because there you can clearly see the result of a world that doesnt "oppress" women, is that really how you liberate women? and it a relates to the audience, since he was addressing a westerner.

[Starr]

ITT Pakis killing Pakis, who cares?

[Faris]

In my opinion, veil might've had a meaning in the past but like most of the "old stuff" in holy books, its outdated and no longer serves any purpose. Everything is changing and there is a very good reason why we humans have a brain, and decide what's necessary and what's not.

oh in that case then sex is outdated too, and we shouldnt have any attraction to the other sex.

yes, we do have a brain, now de-attach yourself from your culture and think for yourself, if a woman is completely willing to cover up for her sake, wouldn't she be better off than revealing her body and attracting the publics eyes on her (considering the dangers/effects it might cause)?

[Starr]

Firas

[Mayareira]

I don't understand what you mean by "revealing her body". There is a very good reason why people have a pair of eyes..what could be so wrong with being seen by other people? What danger can it possess?

Strict and unnecessary rules employed by strict religious regimes tarnish the reputation of the entire religion. We get 9 million tourists in Istanbul annualy, mostly being people from EU, Russia and US and tourists from Islamic countries really look "odd" to me.

I really find it humiliating for them to be forced to wear a veil in summer and swim with their bodies completely covered.

[Faris]

I don't understand what you mean by "revealing her body". There is a very good reason why people have a pair of eyes..what could be so wrong with being seen by other people? What danger can it possess?

i would be repeating my previous posts if i answer this. sorry.

Strict and unnecessary rules employed by strict religious regimes tarnish the reputation of the entire religion. We get 9 million tourists in Istanbul annualy, mostly being people from EU, Russia and US and tourists from Islamic countries really look "odd" to me.

and women who come from the west, dressed in mini skirts and tank tops bra-less look extremely odd to us.

I really find it humiliating for them to be forced to wear a veil in summer and swim with their bodies completely covered.

there are segregated beaches/swimming pools and clubs for women. just like for men.
your culture tells you its humiliating...just like my silly culture tells me not to mention my mother or sister's names infront of strangers, its considered humiliating to mention their names...but fuck that, i follow whats right, my beautiful lovely religion <3

[Plow]

I don't understand what you mean by "revealing her body". There is a very good reason why people have a pair of eyes..what could be so wrong with being seen by other people? What danger can it possess?

It's the same kind of slippery slope argument made by the anti-religious side when people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions.

According to most of the Abrahamic religions, the worst thing a person can do is cause another person to sin. Everyone has urges. Most people can control them. Those that can't point at the beautiful woman in sexy clothes and say "It's totally her fault I raped her, I mean look at what she's wearing, how could I help myself?!"

It's no different than the retarded attempt at a claim Neo repeatedly goes all O'Reilly with his attempts to push talking points when he refers to "turning women into incubators."

Sex is awesome, sex with a condom isn't quite so awesome. Birth control pills take like 8 seconds a day, that's way too much effort. I'm going to go out and have unprotected sex with no birth control. Then, when I get pregnant, fuck that human life, mine is way more important.

You're not going to hold me down and forcefully inseminate me and force me to incubate your baby! I had no choice in the matter!

Strict and unnecessary rules employed by strict religious regimes tarnish the reputation of the entire religion. We get 9 million tourists in Istanbul annualy, mostly being people from EU, Russia and US and tourists from Islamic countries really look "odd" to me.

I really find it humiliating for them to be forced to wear a veil in summer and swim with their bodies completely covered.

If you find humiliation in women keeping themselves fully covered, that's your personal view. I assure you, many of them would feel quite humiliated to be revealed in public, especially since it's likely almost never happened to them.

[Faris]

If you find humiliation in women keeping themselves fully covered, that's your personal view. I assure you, many of them would feel quite humiliated to be revealed in public, especially since it's likely almost never happened to them.

damnit i should be saying that, well put.

here's a true story:
my cousin a 15year old girl living in Sweden, all her life. She decided to help her father in the city (he has a shop there). However, her father told her if she wants to work with him, then she should take off her scarf - it scares his customers away; he said. My cousin was devastated, didnt speak to her dad for weeks.
"how could my dad, try to degrade me like this?!"

yes, the father is douche, and noone likes him in the family.

[Mayareira]

That's an example to discrimination, we've also got people(mostly old) who decide to dress consevatively in Turkey. Its perfectly acceptable for people to dress up according to what they believe in and that's my entire point.

Religion is a line between person and what he believes in....not a triangle of person, god and government. Pre-19th century, when we had complete control over Eastern Europe, Near East and Northern Africa Muslim women in Konstantiniyye/Istanbul dressed up less-conservatively than people in Eastern states(decentralized government plays a role here as well). Why? Because as the education level increases people eliminate the "3rd person", the "other guy" and do what they believe in. Taking an holy book as a "users guide" and forcing its teaching on others is simply unacceptable at this time and age. It just becomes a tool to control masses.

After 1920 revolution, we've abolished Caliphate, brought a secular state with religious freedom...and the result? People simply decided to dress up like the way what you call "westerners" would, even though they are all Muslims in the middle of Istanbul, the center of the 500 year old Caliphate.

How hard is it to accept religion as it is? If you limit people's freedom from the day they are born, I assure you, at the age of 15 or 50 they'll be believing in what the government, or the 3rd person has forced them.

Like the Hajj example, times are changing. Back in 1000 years ago it could be a very nice thing to do. But now? What's the point of splashing your cash on a corrupt government just to "complete" the guidelines of the holy book? You've got a brain which would probably tell you that at this time and day its not a sensilbe thing to do.

[Alvinho]

God created Brazilians with the same sexual instincts and you don't see their beaches being giant orgies do you?

Actually...

[Neosutra]

Sex is awesome, sex with a condom isn't quite so awesome. Birth control pills take like 8 seconds a day, that's way too much effort. I'm going to go out and have unprotected sex with no birth control. Then, when I get pregnant, fuck that human life, mine is way more important.
.

Because everyone that has an abortion is a teenage slut right?

My wife and I have been married for 5 years and she uses the pill, and still had that form of birth control fail. Went to the doctor and got another pill to take care of it and went on with our lives and our plans to not have kids. That egg still didnt become a person, and we didnt become unwilling parents. Its called being responsible, look it up.

You pro-lifers are the worst kind of trash. You get more outraged at the mistreatment of undeveloped skin cells than you do for a grown human's life. You are nothing more than bigots that show your disdain for women in every action, and cannot take the fact that it isnt your body or your choice to make. How dare they not do what you say!

News flash: A 30 year old woman is more of a person than a 3 week old mass of fetal tissue. You dont get to just assign "personhood" to any time in the development stage and assume it is "life", just because it suites you. When does it end? Is masturbating then murder? What about all of those eggs the woman passes via not being used? It is our god ordained duty to impregnate all of those women so we dont waste those eggs! Potential life is what it is all about right? Who cares about the lives and rights of the women incubating the eggs, when there is a potential new convert inside of them.

Maybe if your GF and you had made the right choice back then, you wouldn't have flunked out of engineering school Plow =/

[Tyr]

A lot of this is very painful to read...

Islam has a fundamental notion of "la ikraha fiddeen" -- there is no compulsion in religion. I will preempt any responses by saying that it's obvious so many Muslims, especially when Muslims obtain political rule, throw this essential concept out the window.

In the topic of covering oneself, I'm perturbed at how some nations, such as Iran, force the veil upon their citizens. I'm someone who believes in its sanctity (to an extent), and uphold it as a principle, but that's as far as I can go - even for my sister, I have no right whatsoever to intrude and 'force' them to wear a scarf.

What happens when a country forces a veil on their female citizens, is it severely devalues those who willingly choose to wear it. On the other hand, is it not similarly infringing on an individual's freedom when another nation chooses to outlaw it (such as France)? There is no 'gang affiliation,' no 'inherent violence' in a woman choosing the veil, but the key word here is choosing. Without choice, it's really nothing, or even a sign of a coercive government.

[Plow]

Because everyone that has an abortion is a teenage slut right?

My wife and I have been married for 5 years and she uses the pill, and still had that form of birth control fail. Went to the doctor and got another pill to take care of it and went on with our lives and our plans to not have kids. That egg still didnt become a person, and we didnt become unwilling parents. Its called being responsible, look it up.

You pro-lifers are the worst kind of trash. You get more outraged at the mistreatment of undeveloped skin cells than you do for a grown human's life. You are nothing more than bigots that show your disdain for women in every action, and cannot take the fact that it isnt your body or your choice to make. How dare they not do what you say!

News flash: A 30 year old woman is more of a person than a 3 week old mass of fetal tissue. You dont get to just assign "personhood" to any time in the development stage and assume it is "life", just because it suites you. When does it end? Is masturbating then murder? What about all of those eggs the woman passes via not being used? It is our god ordained duty to impregnate all of those women so we dont waste those eggs! Potential life is what it is all about right? Who cares about the lives and rights of the women incubating the eggs, when there is a potential new convert inside of them.

In other words 3 full paragraphs about how you're not responsible for the results of your actions.

There are exceptions to almost every rule. Rape is an extremely tough spot.


But you had sex. Without a condom. And believed your God Science would save you, even though the product specifically states that it's not 100% effective. Then, when you were faced with the results of your own choices, you decided human life isn't worth your trouble, and ended one.

It's totally not right for anyone else to tell you that you shouldn't kill your babies because you're too lazy to deal with the consequences of sex, let alone be careful with sex, because damn it, sex is fun.

It's totally your choice rather the human being you create gets to live or not thought. Nothing wrong with that scenario at all.

Maybe if your GF and you had made the right choice back then, you wouldn't have flunked out of engineering school Plow =/

And maybe if your wife didn't lie about taking her pills because your selfishness is overriding her natural instincts to desire parenthood, you wouldn't have to kill babies.



Fuck it, let's move the "abortion" age up. There's tons of people with kids 1-2 years old that can't afford it, let's just euthanize em. Hell, let's just make it 5 years old. While we're at it, let's just kill off any criminals, I mean, we're a hell of a lot less responsible for their lives than our own children.




also, /golfclap at completely dodging the actual argument here, nice work trying to shift the point to how euthanasia is fine

[Eratosthenes]

BAM! Straw and rags everywhere!

[zoobernut]

Then, when you were faced with the results of your own choices, you decided human life isn't worth your trouble, and ended one.

It's totally not right for anyone else to tell you that you shouldn't kill your babies because you're too lazy to deal with the consequences of sex, let alone be careful with sex, because damn it, sex is fun.

It's totally your choice rather the human being you create gets to live or not thought. Nothing wrong with that scenario at all.

Not that I want to get into the retardedness that this thread has become but I thought I would point out that the idea of when life actually begins is very debatable. It is NOT fact that a zygote is life, it has the potential to become life, but some people do not believe that a small collection of cells with no nervous tissue, no brain, no distinguishable parts is anything other than a collection of cells.

Now if you believe that it is life as soon as sperm meets egg then yes your argument holds water however if you believe that life and cognizance comes later on in development then your argument does not work.

[Plow]

BAM! Straw and rags everywhere!

Inc "but but umm no I raped my wife! she had no choice in the process whatsoever, and you're just trying to turn her into a baby making device!"

[Plow]

Not that I want to get into the retardedness that this thread has become but I thought I would point out that the idea of when life actually begins is very debatable. It is NOT fact that a zygote is life, it has the potential to become life, but some people do not believe that a small collection of cells with no nervous tissue, no brain, no distinguishable parts is anything other than a collection of cells.

Now if you believe that it is life as soon as sperm meets egg then yes your argument holds water however if you believe that life and cognizance comes later on in development then your argument does not work.

Seeing how he doesn't believe there's a soul or anything like that, how can you possibly define when life starts? If you belief life simply is what it is, it's no more arbitrary to ascribe the start of life to "when the baby begins forming" than to ascribe the start of life to "when they're 18 and can legally support themselves."


I realize it's an extremely in depth and complex discussion, but somehow neo thinks we wouldn't have figured out by now that he's aborted his own kid, and convinced himself that science failing means the actions were not his responsibility, which enables him to attack anyone that disagrees with him further by saying "you're not making my wife a baby factory! We had no choice in the matter, the child is totally not our responsibility! Plus we caught it after only a couple months of development, it totally wasn't a baby yet!"

[Eratosthenes]

Inc "but but umm no I raped my wife! she had no choice in the process whatsoever, and you're just trying to turn her into a baby making device!"

That's hilarious after:

And maybe if your wife didn't lie about taking her pills because your selfishness is overriding her natural instincts to desire parenthood, you wouldn't have to kill babies.

So in addition to "atheists only reject got to rebel against their parents", we also have "women only take the pill because their selfish boyfriends/husbands force them to".

[Plow]

That's hilarious after:



So in addition to "atheists only reject got to rebel against their parents", we also have "women only take the pill because their selfish boyfriends/husbands force them to".

Apparently you didn't catch the part where that was a snide response to him being retarded about my personal life when he doesn't know jack shit about the situation.

[Mayareira]

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is genocide.

If a woman is not prepared to take the responsibility of a child she should be allowed to get rid of the "thing". People are being overly sentimental by calling it a "baby". I'd love to see your faces if you ever hold one of those "things".