The Koran -- Serious business.

[Plow]

I've held those "things" plenty of times.


They were a tad older, though.

[Blarg]

what? nice smelling food can be shared, you wanna share your woman? try another example please. Women and nice smelling food are very far apart.

You do know what the point of an analogy is right? You are avoiding what the analogy means and are trying to pick apart the fact that food and women are different (holy crap no way??) when the point is about forcing something on somebody else who should be able to make up their own mind.

you're exagerrating, raping is an extreme case, you get many other results from such "freedom".

That guy in the video is who brought rape up in the first place but you seem to think his response was without error. I shouldn't need to mention rape, sexual abuse and all sorts of things that are similar to it. Men can keep their hands to themselves and avoid sexually harassing women, if the woman doesn't mind getting stares on the streets then they should be able to show some skin, if they do mind the stares they can cover up until they are comfortable, the choice should be theirs.

I dont understand this statement..brazilians are known to be "free" sexually, no boundaries. how is that relevant to the issue of women covering?

The brazil comment was basically the least important thing of my last post. I just tried to think of the place where men are around woman who wear very little clothes. Those places (beaches) don't seem to be incredibly dangerous for woman to be as you seem to imply it would be (brazil is violent in general so don't go looking for crime statistics or something like that)

overall, im not quite clear what you're saying here, are you denying the fact that the attraction of women to men is non-existent? that women can walk around almost naked, and it would have zero effect on men?? its this modernization that tells us: "oh its ok, women can wear this, and you should accept it in your heart"
yea right, im married and everytime i go past a good looking girl in the mall, i gotta check out her ass, i know i shouldnt, but its just..i cant, i gotta look. i gotta rate that ass, even if it was the president's wife and her cleavage is showing you're going to look and you're going to mentally comment on it. its human nature. and ask ANY guy, noone here can deny that.

I never said that there is no attraction and woman have no effect on men. I am saying that men should deal with that attraction by using their own will power and not by simply removing the rights for woman to choose their dress style. You don't force women with nice breasts to get breast reduction surgery because you have a hard time not staring at their cleavage, you have to deal with that temptation to look yourself. (this is another analogy, don't say that surgery and clothes aren't the same thing and ignore the point)

P.S: sheikh deedat spoke about the west, because there you can clearly see the result of a world that doesnt "oppress" women, is that really how you liberate women? and it a relates to the audience, since he was addressing a westerner.

So all the faults of the west are because we allow woman to make their own decisions?

[quannum]

abortion and religion in the same thread?
all we need to know now is that michael jackson will be playable in ffxiv

edit: and something about sarah palin.

[zoobernut]

Seeing how he doesn't believe there's a soul or anything like that, how can you possibly define when life starts? If you belief life simply is what it is, it's no more arbitrary to ascribe the start of life to "when the baby begins forming" than to ascribe the start of life to "when they're 18 and can legally support themselves."


I realize it's an extremely in depth and complex discussion, but somehow neo thinks we wouldn't have figured out by now that he's aborted his own kid, and convinced himself that science failing means the actions were not his responsibility, which enables him to attack anyone that disagrees with him further by saying "you're not making my wife a baby factory! We had no choice in the matter, the child is totally not our responsibility! Plus we caught it after only a couple months of development, it totally wasn't a baby yet!"

I don't even know how to respond to this but I will try. There are many arguments about when life starts and when cognizance begins. I don't think you are in a position to presume to know if a cluster of cells with no purpose yet and no nervous system is considered life or just the potential for life.

[Plow]

I don't even know how to respond to this but I will try. There are many arguments about when life starts and when cognizance begins. I don't think you are in a position to presume to know if a cluster of cells with no purpose yet and no nervous system is considered life or just the potential for life.

But the person that wants to kill it totally is.


I love how everything imaginable is being done to avoid the point that people take on responsibilities for their actions.

[zoobernut]

Ok see if you want to have a true discussion about abortion you can't throw out loaded terms like kill and baby. You have to call it for exactly what it is.

If you are doing an early term abortion you are removing a cluster of cells. Not killing anything anymore than removing a tumor is killing cancer cells or scratching your arm is committing genocide on skin cells.

To be clear I am not advocating abortion I just want to clear the air of terms that color the conversation. If you want to support not getting an abortion that is fine but call things for what they are not what you think they will become.

[quannum]

responsibilities for their actions, like not bringing a life into this world that they are ill-equipped to care for.

[Mayareira]

I love how everything imaginable is being done to avoid the point that people take on responsibilities for their actions.

Even with pills, there is a chance that women can get pregnant unexpectedly. If she is not ready to take on those responsibilites she should have every right to avoid them.

Anti-abortion men. Heh.

[Plow]

Ok see if you want to have a true discussion about abortion you can't throw out loaded terms like kill and baby. You have to call it for exactly what it is.

If you are doing an early term abortion you are removing a cluster of cells. Not killing anything anymore than removing a tumor is killing cancer cells or scratching your arm is committing genocide on skin cells.

To be clear I am not advocating abortion I just want to clear the air of terms that color the conversation. If you want to support not getting an abortion that is fine but call things for what they are not what you think they will become.

You pro-lifers are the worst kind of trash. You get more outraged at the mistreatment of undeveloped skin cells than you do for a grown human's life. You are nothing more than bigots that show your disdain for women in every action, and cannot take the fact that it isnt your body or your choice to make. How dare they not do what you say!

In case you didn't notice, he's not interested in any kind of true discussion about anything.


I'm arguing against the fucking Bill O'Reilly of science worship, if you hadn't noticed, there's no sense in trying to be reasonable.



And, again, it's pretty ridiculous to say the people that don't like abortion can't use the terms "baby" or "kill," when you're going to try to dismiss the importance of human life by referring to it as "a cluster of cells," or "that thing," etc. and throw out the word kill regardless of the fact that no matter how you look at it, you're killing "something."


I get the impression a lot of people don't have the slightest fucking clue about human development here, and think the "day after pill" is no different than 3 months down the line.

[ZarakiKujata]

Is this thread still going on? Makes me happy my beliefs are so similiar to Neo, never have to bicker like this.

Elvis - I've seen the picture before, I take that more of a sign of the fact its from the Middle East and its culture

[zoobernut]

And, again, it's pretty ridiculous to say the people that don't like abortion can't use the terms "baby" or "kill," when you're going to try to dismiss the importance of human life by referring to it as "a cluster of cells," or "that thing," etc. and throw out the word kill regardless of the fact that no matter how you look at it, you're killing "something."


I get the impression a lot of people don't have the slightest fucking clue about human development here, and think the "day after pill" is no different than 3 months down the line.

Except that in one case it is using accurate terms to describe what is actually happening with human development and in the other it is using terms to illicit an emotional response. Also in case you did not notice I was ignoring Neo and just posting to you so I don't really care about what he said. I do agree with you that many people do not understand human development and the cycles it goes through and what stages of development abortions are performed during.

Again I don't agree with you that "no matter how you look at it, you're killing "something"" I don't think it is as cut and dry as you seem to think it is. Just to make it clear Plow I don't think there is any way either of us is going to change each others attitudes or beliefs over when life does or does not start. There just is no proof out there and no current conceptual way to know the exact moment when life begins. This is why I think the whole abortion argument is loaded and very rarely are peoples minds changed about it.

For the record my own personal belief is that abortion has its place and time where it is appropriate but it is abused far too often and should really be an absolute last resort.

[Neosutra]

We arent talking about the beginning of life Zoober, we are talking about the beginning of person hood. Life is a transition, not a discrete function. You don't got from "dead cells" to "live cells" at any given point. You go from 2 sets of complex organisms to another set that derives it's genetic identity from the 2 parent donors.

Plow is just another crazy fundamentalist that masks his disdain for women with a cry of fetal injustice and labeling anyone that does get pregnant w/o prior planning to be a "teenage whore" (but maybe that comes from his own experiences).

[zoobernut]

Yes thank you for the clarification. By beginning of life I did not mean literally when the cells begin to live. I mean when the fetus transitions from being just a collection of cells to a discrete human being with consciousness.

That is something we will never know when it happens.

[kuronosan]

I get the impression a lot of people don't have the slightest fucking clue about human development here, and think the "day after pill" is no different than 3 months down the line.

I have quite the clue about human development. A baby doesn't actually become a baby until after about 28 weeks into the pregnancy. Before that, it's a cluster of cells that have probably not differentiated completely yet.

Until the nervous system is fully functioning, it isn't even conscious yet. This means if you believe in God, the baby doesn't really have a soul yet. If you're an athiest, the baby isn't even "turned on" yet.

Any organism isn't really alive until it's developed sufficient systems to be conscious. It's like building a chair. Until you have someone carve the wood, it's just a set of plans. Then the plans get translated into the project. Someone takes up the project and begins building the different parts of the chair that go together. Then the chair is put together piece by piece using those parts and polished until it can actually function as a seat.

You don't recognize a chair as a pile of wood. It's a pile of fucking wood.

Take that analogy, and that's human development in a nutshell. A baby is a baby once all the systems are in place and begin functioning (even if it's abnormally).

Hell, the brain doesn't even begin to function in a baby until about 20-24 weeks into the pregnancy.

[Plow]

Zoob, look at neo's last post to see what I mean. Reason is pointless. You've got the right idea with ignoring him though, it's sad how entirely unworthy of anyone's time he really is.

Except that in one case it is using accurate terms to describe what is actually happening with human development and in the other it is using terms to illicit an emotional response. Also in case you did not notice I was ignoring Neo and just posting to you so I don't really care about what he said. I do agree with you that many people do not understand human development and the cycles it goes through and what stages of development abortions are performed during.

Really? You don't realize that you're using the terms "that thing," "cluster of cells," etc. to dehumanize and minimize the psychological impact the exact same way I'm using the terms "kill" and "baby" to humanize and focus on the psychology aspect?

Again I don't agree with you that "no matter how you look at it, you're killing "something""

I'm really not sure what there is to disagree with. Rather you want to label it a cluster of cells, a "thing", whatever, you're still killing it, and the cells it consists of.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you seem to think it is. Just to make it clear Plow I don't think there is any way either of us is going to change each others attitudes or beliefs over when life does or does not start. There just is no proof out there and no current conceptual way to know the exact moment when life begins. This is why I think the whole abortion argument is loaded and very rarely are peoples minds changed about it.

To be quite honest, this is the one point in the religious arguments where I'm actually willing to step into the debate as an actual proponent of a belief. I agree extremely strongly that we don't have the capability, let alone the right, to say "this is a fertilized egg, and this is an actual human life." What I really don't get is how that is turned into "therefore we can end its life at will."

For the record my own personal belief is that abortion has its place and time where it is appropriate but it is abused far too often and should really be an absolute last resort.

I pretty much feel the same. For the most part, I'm of the opinion that abortion is an option that should only be exercised in the most dire of situations, specifically major risks to the life of both the mother and the child.

I'm sure it's related to the way I was taught. While the school I went to was 99.999% catholics, it was really quite liberal, considering. Our sex education taught us about condoms, birth control, abortion, adoption, everything. It also taught consistently throughout that while all of these are options, the only 100% effective method of birth control or STD avoidance is abstinence.

I believe, rather you like it or not, sex is a choice you make to participate in, and you need to be prepared to bring a life into the world if you make that decision.

I don't view it any differently than choosing not to drink if you are going to drive, choosing not to smoke if you want to be a distance runner, or any other common sense decision people make every day.


I really don't know how to handle rape. I can see deciding "this is a life that should not be forced upon the world," in situations where it's not an issue of personal responsibility. I can see that the emotional strain can be extreme in such situations-- be it with carrying a rapist's baby to term and feeling like you were forced to become an "incubator," or be it with ending a life that's a part of you because it was created under terrible circumstances.

I can also see the multitude issues that arise if you begin to require some kind of "proof of rape" or "proof of health danger" in order to partake in an abortion. Like you said, this is an incredibly tough dilemma.

If we really want to have an abortion discussion, can we make a new thread for it or something?

All we've really managed to do here is to usher this:

I'll take that as the same as "I'll post facts tomorrow" followed by "no I don't want to post facts I'm leaving this thread" followed by 10 more posts in the next day.

And I'll be waiting for the next time you attempt to "score a point against me" in a couple hours.

To complete fruition.

[Plow]

I have quite the clue about human development.

Ok, good.

A baby doesn't actually become a baby until after about 28 weeks into the pregnancy. Before that, it's a cluster of cells that have probably not differentiated completely yet.

Wait, no, you have no fucking clue what you're saying...

[Neosutra]

I'm being unreasonable for valuing the life of a full grown human over undeveloped fetal tissue.

Classic Plow. "Neo doesnt agree with me, so he is unreasonable".

Please, go back to telling your girlfriend what to do with her body. I wonder if she regrets that decision to keep it..

[kuronosan]

Go fuck yourself, Plow. It might help ease some of the frustration you're feeling from having to prove you're right all the time.

Fetal Development Week by Week Images | BabyCenter

YouTube - fetal development

Prenatal development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click on the links and shut the fuck up.

[Plow]

I'm being unreasonable for valuing the life of a full grown human over undeveloped fetal tissue.

Classic Plow. "Neo doesnt agree with me, so he is unreasonable".

Please, go back to telling your girlfriend what to do with her body. I wonder if she regrets that decision to keep it..

The first thing she said when I asked what the fuck are we gonna do when the test was positive was "definitely not get an abortion."


bzzzzt try again.


How about try the shit 2 pages ago you've been dodging this whole time by trying to have the abortion argument you so desperately wish you could win against your dad with random people on the internet instead.

[Plow]

Go fuck yourself, Plow. It might help ease some of the frustration you're feeling from having to prove you're right all the time.

Fetal Development Week by Week Images | BabyCenter

YouTube - fetal development

Prenatal development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click on the links and shut the fuck up.

You said a fucking baby is a pile of cells with no differentiation until SEVEN MONTHS.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.