The Koran -- Serious business.

[kuronosan]

I believe the words I used was probably and completely. Not "the baby's cells haven't differentiated". Here, let me help:

Before that, it's a cluster of cells that have probably not differentiated completely yet.

You, sir, are the one who has no fucking clue. So again, shut the fuck up. A cluster of cells by definition is a tissue, of which a cluster of can form organs, which grouped together form complex systems which work together to form an organism.

So using terminology that states that it is a cluster of cells is far from inaccurate.

Maybe you should have been a biologist. Then you wouldn't be made of so much fucking fail.

[Neosutra]

Nice counter Plow. "No you!"

[Plow]

I believe the words I used was probably and completely. Not "the baby's cells haven't differentiated". Here, let me help:



You, sir, are the one who has no fucking clue. So again, shut the fuck up. A cluster of cells by definition is a tissue, of which a cluster of can form organs, which grouped together form complex systems which work together to form an organism.

From your link, just so you know.

http://www.babycenter.com/i/m/stages...s/13/index.jpg


Yeah, that's clearly just a cluster of undifferentiated cells.

And seeing how I'm the one being an unreasonable idiot here, I must've taken it from like 2 days before the number you said, right?

Oh, wait, no, that's FOUR FUCKING MONTHS before the time you're talking about.

So using terminology that states that it is a cluster of cells is far from accurate.

Maybe you should have been a biologist. Then you wouldn't be made of so much fucking fail.

What the fuck do you think 90% of psychology these days is?

Nice counter Plow. "No you!"

Nice dodge, that's worth like 1/3 of a point. Keep em coming, you'll catch up someday!

[zoobernut]

Really Plow I cannot believe you do not see what I meant by the statement. And no it is not cut and dry you are not definitely killing something when you get an abortion.

I believe that in order for an abortion to be murder it has to be done far enough along in development for the fetus to have a functioning developed brain, not just a random twist of cells that will eventually become a brain. Granted when the fetus does gain consciousness and begin to think on its own is the gray area and I do not know when that happens. However I do not think you are "killing" anything if you get an abortion before then. If you eat the seed from a tree you are not killing a tree, the seed is the possibility of the tree. When you eat a fertilized egg from a chicken you are not killing a chicken you are stopping the possibility of life from that egg, but it is not life yet. Same thing applies to humans.

And even though I don't think abortion should be used lightly I will ALWAYS value existing human life over the possibility of life.

[kuronosan]

From your link, just so you know.

http://www.babycenter.com/i/m/stages...s/13/index.jpg


Yeah, that's clearly just a cluster of undifferentiated cells.

And seeing how I'm the one being an unreasonable idiot here, I must've taken it from like 2 days before the number you said, right?

Oh, wait, no, that's FOUR FUCKING MONTHS before the time you're talking about.




What the fuck do you think 90% of psychology these days is?






Nice dodge, that's worth like 1/3 of a point. Keep em coming, you'll catch up someday!

Cellular differentiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cells differentiate throughout the entire life cycle, you fucking tool.

And no, 90% of psychology is fucking psychology and an understanding of neurological function using biological factors. Yes, biological factors.

"Biological factors" is not the entire field of fucking biology, so becoming a psychologist does not make you a fucking biologist.

Jesus H. Christ. Get off your horse.

And again, I never said a cluster of undifferentiated cells - I said a cluster of cells which may or may not have not completely differentiated.

[Plow]

Really Plow I cannot believe you do not see what I meant by the statement. And no it is not cut and dry you are not definitely killing something when you get an abortion.

I believe that in order for an abortion to be murder it has to be done far enough along in development for the fetus to have a functioning developed brain, not just a random twist of cells that will eventually become a brain. Granted when the fetus does gain consciousness and begin to think on its own is the gray area and I do not know when that happens. However I do not think you are "killing" anything if you get an abortion before then. If you eat the seed from a tree you are not killing a tree, the seed is the possibility of the tree. When you eat a fertilized egg from a chicken you are not killing a chicken you are stopping the possibility of life from that egg, but it is not life yet. Same thing applies to humans.

And even though I don't think abortion should be used lightly I will ALWAYS value existing human life over the possibility of life.

So we should just kill anyone that goes into a deep coma? The similarities between people that aren't even half as bad as a Terry Schaivo type scenario and the early stages of prenatal brain development are remarkable.

And you're taking my point about killing something too far-- even if it's just a cluster of cells, you're still killing a cluster of cells. You can't just eliminate the word kill from the discussion of destroying living tissue.

[Neosutra]

Your chicken/egg analogy doesnt work zoober because chickens dont have souls.

[zoobernut]

So every day your body kills millions of cells. Every time you scratch your arm or your head or your nuts you kill thousands of skin cells. I fail to see the difference. The potential for life is not the same thing as life itself.

There is a big difference between someone who has lived a life and has a fully functioning cognizant brain that is having trouble functioning due to some trauma and a fetus that is developing. I don't really think I should have to describe to you why a coma patient is different than a fetus.

Edit: I know you are being sarcastic Neo but just because others will bring up that point too I think the whole animals have no souls while humans do is bullshit. Humans are animals. We may interact with the world differently and observe things differently but we are no different on the level of aliveness than any other animal.

[Plow]

Cellular differentiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cells differentiate throughout the entire life cycle, you fucking tool.

Exactly. You're fucking retarded for trying to make the argument that it's not a human life because the cells aren't 100% entirely differentiated when a fucking 100 year old man that's about to die still has cell production and differentiation occurring.

And no, 90% of psychology is fucking psychology and an understanding of neurological function using biological factors. Yes, biological factors.

"Biological factors" is not the entire field of fucking biology, so becoming a psychologist does not make you a fucking biologist.

Jesus H. Christ. Get off your horse.

Ok, you're right, I know nothing about biology, only biological factors. That's a brilliant fucking statement right there.

Also, every defined biologist knows absolutely everything there is to know about "the entire field of fucking biology."

And again, I never said a cluster of undifferentiated cells - I said a cluster of cells which may or may not have not completely differentiated.

Not even realizing until you went back to research and try to make me look wrong that the exact same can be said of you or me or anyone else that's ever lived.

[Plow]

Seriously can we get this split into a different thread?

So every day your body kills millions of cells. Every time you scratch your arm or your head or your nuts you kill thousands of skin cells. I fail to see the difference. The potential for life is not the same thing as life itself.

There is a big difference between someone who has lived a life and has a fully functioning cognizant brain that is having trouble functioning due to some trauma and a fetus that is developing. I don't really think I should have to describe to you why a coma patient is different than a fetus.

Because you're talking about killing it is not enough reason to have to describe why it's different?

Edit: I know you are being sarcastic Neo but just because others will bring up that point too I think the whole animals have no souls while humans do is bullshit. Humans are animals. We may interact with the world differently and observe things differently but we are no different on the level of aliveness than any other animal.

All dogs go to heaven.

[kuronosan]

Exactly. You're fucking retarded for trying to make the argument that it's not a human life because the cells aren't 100% entirely differentiated when a fucking 100 year old man that's about to die still has cell production and differentiation occurring.



Ok, you're right, I know nothing about biology, only biological factors. That's a brilliant fucking statement right there.

Also, every defined biologist knows absolutely everything there is to know about "the entire field of fucking biology."





Not even realizing until you went back to research and try to make me look wrong that the exact same can be said of you or me or anyone else that's ever lived.

Take your high school debating skills, which only attempt to turn small holes in somebody's argument into balloon-sinking mammoths, and go back and get a new major.

The argument was that a baby is not a baby until it has fully developed and essential systems have differentiated and activated, and you're trying to argue semantics because you're a fucking tool. I'm done with this topic.

At least Neo, in all his athiestic ignorance, has a measure of fucking intellect.

[Plow]

I'm sorry kuro, I realize I was quite rude with my initial response to you and that's why you got angry, I was just quite shocked that someone would suggest a point literally *past* that where a baby can be born and survive (my oldest sister was 12 weeks early, I'll let you work that out...) as when it becomes a human.


The point I'm making is that it's statements like what you made, which attempt to differentiate when something is a human and when it's not by things that are not definitive at all which simply bog down the argument with meaningless misleading claims.

[Neosutra]

I'm sorry kuro, I realize I was quite rude with my initial response to you and that's why you got angry, I was just quite shocked that someone would suggest a point literally *past* that where a baby can be born and survive (my oldest sister was 12 weeks early, I'll let you work that out...) as when it becomes a human.


The point I'm making is that it's statements like what you made, which attempt to differentiate when something is a human and when it's not by things that are not definitive at all which simply bog down the argument with meaningless misleading claims.

Meaningless misleading claims... Like using the words baby and murder to describe fetal tissue?

[Plow]

Meaningless misleading claims... Like using the words baby and murder to describe fetal tissue?

Funny how you're the one throwing around the word murder when I haven't said it once prior to this sentence.

And the picture I linked from kuro's link was from not long after the stage at which you probably aborted your baby. If that's "fetal tissue" but not a baby, we're all human tissue but not humans.

[Plow]

It's much more like if I was saying ridiculous shit like "turning women into incubators" and "not valuing their life" because someone believes they should take responsibility for their actions, and by "take responsibility," don't mean "abort the baby."

[zoobernut]

Just because something looks like a human doesn't mean it is a human it has to be conscious of its existence in order to be anything other than tissue. People who are in comas have had consciousness and memories locked within their brains, and there are tests to see if someone still has a functioning brain or not with regaurds to comas. A human is currently alive and has consciousness. A fetus does not have consciousness or any sort of awareness of its existence that we know of during certain stages of development.

I don't know when this limit is but there is a threshold when consciousness forms and before that point it is the potential for life not life yet.

[Belkin]

Wow. Arguing over matters that are strictly personal opinion is pretty cool.

PS: I'm pro-choice.

FUCK YA, NEO! LETS KILL SOME UNBORN BABIES.

"But Belkin, what if your mother aborted YOU?!"

Then I wouldn't have to be listening to your stupid, stubborn ass.

[Correction]

Wow. Arguing over matters that are strictly personal opinion is pretty cool.

This must be your first religion thread. :D

[Kerberoz]

Oh look, religious fundies arguing semantics. Never see that on the interwebs.

Abortion is wrong because we need more breeding stock destined for the army. Duh. Having a child before you're prepared to support it is the definition of responsibility! Immature and sentimental? Nah. Imagine if everyone waited until they were ready to bring a child into the world... it would destroy the economy! We don't need people finishing college, leading fulfilled lives, and raising their children comfortably when they're ready... happy people are harder to indoctrinate.

Just wondering: is birth control murder, too? You know it occasionally prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, right? It has teh soul already, no?

[Belkin]

I'll be honest with ya, I only read page 12 of this thread and saw this bullshit.

Seriously, what are you guys arguing over. Just stop.

Edit: Nevermind, it's pretty entertaining. Keep going.