The Koran -- Serious business.

[Plow]

Just because something looks like a human doesn't mean it is a human it has to be conscious of its existence in order to be anything other than tissue. People who are in comas have had consciousness and memories locked within their brains, and there are tests to see if someone still has a functioning brain or not with regaurds to comas. A human is currently alive and has consciousness. A fetus does not have consciousness or any sort of awareness of its existence that we know of during certain stages of development.

You're wrong. Do you want me to show you why? It's pretty complex, you can do some research of your own if you prefer. >.>

Good starting points:

HowStuffWorks "How Brain Death Works"
Coma - Overview - neurologychannel <follow the links
Prenatal Human Brain Development <the pdf on that page

Compare and contrast how the patterns relate, and the progressions of various potentials. I'll get right back to this.

I don't know when this limit is but there is a threshold when consciousness forms and before that point it is the potential for life not life yet.

What you'll find if you look more thoroughly into this is that this is one of the deepest rooted conjectures a person can ever make.

The reality is that often in a coma, the potential for a return to life is even lower than that of an extremely undeveloped child. What I'm getting at is not only the similarities between a damaged brain, both regressing and progressing, to that of an unborn child.

Perhaps an even bigger issue is that if you're looking at the potential for life, you're not only attempting to do something along the lines of finding the point where a fertilized egg has above a 50% chance of developing into a human (this is something like 2 and a half days in, being generous) and saying "ok, now it's probably going to be a life." Not only is that a whoooole lot earlier than what people are suggesting here (earlier than is really reasonable to detect outside extremely intensely tested scenarios), but it's somewhat arbitrary, and places enough "faith" in modern science to trust it to decide when it's more likely something will survive.

But still, the overlying point is that, as I mentioned, there are varying degrees of potential for return to life from various states of unconsciousness in any human, who are we to decide which ones are worth protecting and which are disposable?

I just think "consciousness" is a terrible way to determine when a life becomes human. Cows are conscious.


Honestly, I really despise the fact that abortion is considered a "religious" issue. It's a moral decision, regardless of if you're religious, anti-religious, or couldn't care less about religion.

[Plow]

Oh look, religious fundies arguing semantics. Never see that on the interwebs.

Abortion is wrong because we need more breeding stock destined for the army. Duh. Having a child before you're prepared to support it is the definition of responsibility! Immature and sentimental? Nah. Imagine if everyone waited until they were ready to bring a child into the world... it would destroy the economy! We don't need people finishing college, leading fulfilled lives, and raising their children comfortably when they're ready... happy people are harder to indoctrinate.

Just wondering: is birth control murder, too? You know it occasionally prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, right? It has teh soul already, no?

It's too bad there's no options for recovery when people make this specific mistake other than abortion.

Wouldn't it be awesome if there were thousands upon thousands of people unable to procreate but perfectly willing and capable of raising a child well, literally sitting and waiting for that exact kind of opportunity?

Oh, no, wait, those would be terrible evil anti-abortion people that ruin the world, and caring more about clumps of sex residue than the mothers that are all going to die horrible painful deaths immediately if they consider carrying the baby to term.

edit: well, killed or mutated into worthless pieces of medical equipment that serve no purpose but meaningless shit like saving lives

[zoobernut]

Ok Plow you completely misunderstood what I said and went off on a tangent. First potential for life is what I consider a fetus not life, until it reaches consciousness. Yes I know it is opinion. My opinion which differs from your opinion is that life doesn't begin until consciousness begins.

Really I don't want to be insulting but you do the exact same thing as Neo in threads like this that you yell at him for. So until you start acting differently I don't really think you should rag on him for his arguing style.

What I said specifically about coma patients is they are different than fetus's because they are a complete human that has already had a life and already had consciousness and has memories this is a different situation than a fetus that has not experienced any of this yet and is still only the potential for it.

Edit: I read the links you posted and they have nothing to do with the parallel you are trying to draw between a fetus and a coma patient. They just talk about the difference between a person who has suffered brain death and someone who is in a coma. That is just a semantics argument. Sorry I did not make a distinction between brain death and a coma.

Re-reading your post I don't even really understand why you are saying anything about percentages like the 50% chance of the egg developing? That has nothing to do with what I was saying. Go back and reread my posts and maybe you will better understand what I mean by potential for life.

[Plow]

You're missing my point entirely. A fetus does show memorization activity almost instantly as the brain forms, learning is literally brain development and vice-versa.

What I'm getting at is how bad of a requisite "consciousness" is for a determinant on if something is alive.

Again, I'll go a whole lot more in depth if you want me to.


But this really should be a completely different thread.


edit: like I said you'll have to follow the links... and the pdf is for comparison when you see what the activity we refer to as consciousness really is.


edit again: fawk, you have to be a member to see the pdf sorry... gimme a bit

[zoobernut]

I did follow the links and I did read the articles and I still disagree with the parallel between a fetus and a coma or brain dead patient.

I also have stated that I do not presume to know when that process happens but you don't have the authority to tell me that I am incorrect in believing that life starts when consciousness starts. That is what I believe. Now that may happen over time starting when the brain bud forms or it may not happen until the brain is more functioned and the spinal cord is done developing, I don't know.

[Plow]

I'm just going to go completely layman for now.

Think of the brain (or the human as a whole) as a wooden building.

Picture the parents themselves as forests. Picture the sperm/eggs as raw building materials, lumber, nails and other connectivity supplies, etc. The developmental patterns they carry would be the blueprints.

When conception occurs, ground is broken on the building site. The foundation is laid extraordinarily quickly in this case, and the framework very shortly after. From that point, the outer walls and roof are put up, and while nowhere near a functioning home, for example, it is clearly a building providing protection from the elements. It has a clear structure, and what it is to become is quite obvious.


What you're saying is essentially that it's not a "building" at all, but still simply a pile of materials, until someone can walk in, turn on the lights, use the plumbing, etc. etc.


To apply the same standards throughout life would be to say a building is no longer a building if there's a fire in part of it. Clearly, we would gauge the value of the building versus the cost of repairs, versus rebuilding or simply demolishing, etc. But do we really want to be making that kind of decision with human life?

A building under development is still very much the same as a building under repair. A few of the methods will vary (and in fact often be much more difficult with a damaged than an unfinished building), but the underlying activity of bringing in the materials and filling in the spaces according to the blueprints is the same.


The question is, who are we to determine when we should hold ourselves to those standards?


And I should have stated more clearly, I'm not declaring your opinions wrong, I'm saying your understanding of the way the brain develops and the mental state throughout the development is pretty off base.

A better way to describe what you're getting at may be awareness rather than consciousness, but the resulting discussion would be much the same.


A better point would be the issue of sustenance, again pointing at the Schaivo case for an example. She was completely unable to survive without medical equipment. Personally, I feel that's kind of the point where we're forced to make this kind of decision. It's important to consider though, that there are still many more factors.

If the only factor was "did I place her in this situation, and is the only burden going to be a little suffering on my part to support her," and there was anywhere remotely near the level of likelihood of her once again becoming a fully functional human as there is with a few week old fetus; I don't think there would even be a decision to be made, you would just do whatever it took to have a chance to realize that potential.


To say that having memories and consciousness determines if something is human yet doesn't work, because the exact same activities occur looooooong before we're remotely capable of being aware of them.

[zoobernut]

See there you go again talking about time and when it happens. If you notice you re-stated what I said exactly just in a retarded analogy that doesn't quite fit.

I wasn't talking about when it happens in human development I was just stating my criteria for a lump of flesh being considered human. That is the difference between a tumor and a fetus when that occurs.

How is my understanding of how the brain and mental state develops through pregnancy off base? I never stated anything about how it works because I do not understand it. I can't be off base if I never made any claims about how it works. You really do fail at reading comprehension Plow and it is quite frustrating.

All I was saying was the criteria that I personally use to determine the difference between a tumor and a human.

As for the Shaivo thing it is my opinion that if the brain is dead then nothing is left. If there is a soul or whatever you want to call it, it would reside in the brain, our brain is what makes us human and without it we are just a random collection of cells.

[Neosutra]

Your analogy of the brain is inaccurate Plow. Neural nets are forming throughout the development process, as a continued growth process. You cant compare a gradual development of sensory development to a development of a house and fully functional parts. And again, you are falling back to saying we are "making that kind of decisions with human lives".

It isnt a human life. It isnt a person. It MAY be a person, if it is carried to term (or to a point later where it can survive). Your sperm and your GF's eggs carry the potential for life. Every argument you have used can be used to state you are murdering "human lives" when you dont use every last one of them.

And as usual, you assume that just because people are willing to adopt, that all pregnancies should be carried to term, even if the mother doesnt want it. How shallow of you to trivialize the birthing process (and yes, turn women into incubators), stealing 9 months of life away from a woman that doesnt even want children, just to satisfy your disgusting attempts to grant fetal tissue person hood and hold that tissue as greater than the woman that houses it.

You really dont understand human development, or just how big of a deal it is to carry and give birth to something for no other reason that to satisfy another MAN's ego at controlling your body.

Still playing the "lol im really an atheist" by the way? Because you are still arguing the born against christian's side on -every- thread.

[Plow]

See there you go again talking about time and when it happens. If you notice you re-stated what I said exactly just in a retarded analogy that doesn't quite fit.

I wasn't talking about when it happens in human development I was just stating my criteria for a lump of flesh being considered human. That is the difference between a tumor and a fetus when that occurs.

How is my understanding of how the brain and mental state develops through pregnancy off base? I never stated anything about how it works because I do not understand it. I can't be off base if I never made any claims about how it works. You really do fail at reading comprehension Plow and it is quite frustrating.

All I was saying was the criteria that I personally use to determine the difference between a tumor and a human.

As for the Shaivo thing it is my opinion that if the brain is dead then nothing is left. If there is a soul or whatever you want to call it, it would reside in the brain, our brain is what makes us human and without it we are just a random collection of cells.

I'm not arguing about when it happens. I assure you, I'm not the one failing to comprehend shit here.


My point is that it doesn't matter when "this" or "that" happens. Regardless of when the requirement is placed, you're still attempting to establish a difference between initial brain development and continued brain development, when the reality is they are extremely similar. Not only that, but you're attempting to establish from that basis when it's ok to end human life.

Your analogy of the brain is inaccurate Plow. Neural nets are forming throughout the development process, as a continued growth process. You cant compare a gradual development of sensory development to a development of a house and fully functional parts. And again, you are falling back to saying we are "making that kind of decisions with human lives".

You're so not worth time, I don't know why the fuck I'm bothering.

How the fuck can I not compare gradual development into fully functional parts to gradual development into fully functional parts?

Are you honestly stupid enough to take the example literally and assume I'm referring to a house as a living being?

You're the one that wants to turn prenatal development into lifeless production here, not me.

It isnt a human life. It isnt a person. It MAY be a person, if it is carried to term (or to a point later where it can survive). Your sperm and your GF's eggs carry the potential for life. Every argument you have used can be used to state you are murdering "human lives" when you dont use every last one of them.

They could. But I'm not making that argument, because I understand the fact that that kind of argument is based in instincts for survival as a species, and that things are not so clearly black and white.

And as usual, you assume that just because people are willing to adopt, that all pregnancies should be carried to term, even if the mother doesnt want it. How shallow of you to trivialize the birthing process (and yes, turn women into incubators), stealing 9 months of life away from a woman that doesnt even want children, just to satisfy your disgusting attempts to grant fetal tissue person hood and hold that tissue as greater than the woman that houses it.

You're sitting here telling me I'm being shallow, and devaluing life, by stating that I believe a woman who takes the necessary actions to create a baby should then take responsibility for her actions, and that that responsibility is to give it the best life she is capable of.

But it's not shallow, or devaluing at all to refer to a fetus as "clumps of cells," or claim that its entire life is not worth some difficulty for a few months in the life of the people who put it into the situation in the first place.

A newborn baby is not self sufficient. It still depends on parenting and requires fairly intense care. So yeah, we should just allow them to be dropped off at a shredder because their life isn't remotely near worth the time and effort it will take to raise them.

Right?

You really dont understand human development,

Oh lawd, neo, PLEASE go there. Challenge me on developmental biology/psychology or neurology, it will be *great* fun watching you turn tail and run for the hills while turning around to bark every now and then, like you do every time you try this shit.

or just how big of a deal it is to carry and give birth to something for no other reason that to satisfy another MAN's ego at controlling your body.

Yeah, I'm sure you, the guy that "took another pill and moved on," understand what a woman goes through in this situation way the fuck better than me, the guy that gave up school to move back to where a woman would feel comfortable and stood alongside her through the entire process from finding out to recovering afterward.

Still playing the "lol im really an atheist" by the way? Because you are still arguing the born against christian's side on -every- thread.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really don't know where I stand on religion.

But this is not a religious issue, in the least.

[Neosutra]

Ya Plow, it was responsible of you to give up your life at that time (and postpone being a contributing member of society) to raise a kid neither you nor your GF was ready for.

Way to go champ, you are being responsible.

This entire argument comes down to you equating pregnancy to "instant life" and arbitrarily assigning personhood to fetal tissue. You say you realize it isnt black and white, yet you clearly use language that suggest the fetus is not only a person, but a full "human life" that should be valued above the mothers.

Has it not dawned on you that aborting IS the responsible answer for MANY cases?

If you had been responsible and aborted yours, we would have one less future drag on our society right now, and your GF's life would have ended up a lot better.

[Plow]

Ya Plow, it was responsible of you to give up your life at that time (and postpone being a contributing member of society) to raise a kid neither you nor your GF was ready for.

Way to go champ, you are being responsible.

The kid is 9 years old now, his parents are a nurse and the owner of a fence building company.

Yeah, it's a rough life we put him through.


Nevermind the fact that I worked harder before I was 18 than you ever will in your entire life put together. Hell I probably worked harder in any single day when I was 14 than you will in your entire life, and guess what I was doing? Putting food on your table.

I guess I missed the part where taking off from school in order to work and pay rent is putting off being a contributing part of society.

This entire argument comes down to you equating pregnancy to "instant life" and arbitrarily assigning personhood to fetal tissue. You say you realize it isnt black and white, yet you clearly use language that suggest the fetus is not only a person, but a full "human life" that should be valued above the mothers.

I suppose I'd have to concede that there is some point where it becomes a human life. But, personally, the state of the brain is not the deciding factor. Essentially at the point where the cells become a blastocyst, the closest to your demeaning terminology of a "clump of cells," it's already far beyond a fertilized egg and behaving as a functional being, and one that will become a human unless there are significant flaws or damaging impacts.

This is well before it's remotely reasonably detected, and even the most effective of modern methods being used regularly will require some element of luck to find the trace signs this early.

By the time it's most reasonably detected, and about when you most likely realized your wife was pregnant, the heart is beginning to beat, the face, ears, and arms are becoming apparent, the mouth has started to "split," and the more primitive version of the CNS is shutting down and being replaced. It is *FAR* from a "clump of cells."

Has it not dawned on you that aborting IS the responsible answer for MANY cases?

No, neo, I never considered that possibility, ever. I totally don't think about these things at all, I just come up with random conclusions out of the blue.

It's entirely impossible that I don't believe for a second choosing to abort is the most irresponsible choice a person can make based on things like, oh, I don't know, the level of responsibility it entails.

If you had been responsible and aborted yours, we would have one less future drag on our society right now, and your GF's life would have ended up a lot better.

Are you really this retarded? You work so hard to block adoption out of your mind that you forgot what you're trying to insult me for?

[Stiker]

Well it took about 10 pages (on "inferior" settings) but it seems like this thread is now where we were all expecting it to be.

Carry on.

[Plow]

It has been for a long time, I was just letting Elvis have all the fun.

[Neosutra]

Nevermind the fact that I worked harder before I was 18 than you ever will in your entire life put together. Hell I probably worked harder in any single day when I was 14 than you will in your entire life, and guess what I was doing? Putting food on your table.

Where did you come up with that one champ? You worked harder before 18 than I ever will lol? Really? On what basis are you AGAIN showing us all your completely sophomoric and narrow view of life and everyone else around you? Like everyone else on the planet doesnt work their ass off to survive. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. 9 years in the army, and my easiest day of work (even when not in combat) was probably harder than the most tear filled day you ever had.

You work so hard to block adoption out of your mind that you forgot what you're trying to insult me for?

Adoption? Oh ya, back to trivializing the birthing process and turning women into incubators.

Gotcha.

How is that fence company coming? Thought you were a sophomore in poli-sci? Engineering drop out? Atheist that sees god in the smile of children? Pro-life fanatic? I dont even know how what to call you anymore. Oh, need to add "biological/psychological neural development expert" to the list, as everyone else here that has corrected you on your fallacies and misrepresentations just "don't understand".

[Plow]

Where did you come up with that one champ? You worked harder before 18 than I ever will lol? Really? On what basis are you AGAIN showing us all your completely sophomoric and narrow view of life and everyone else around you? Like everyone else on the planet doesnt work their ass off to survive. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. 9 years in the army, and my easiest day of work (even when not in combat) was probably harder than the most tear filled day you ever had.

Go follow a trailer around various fields of hay throwing 50+ pound bails up on it from sunrise to sunset for a couple weeks at a time with a lunch break and the occasional relaxing trip to a cattle auction to break the monotony... then do it at 14 for an entire season. Then come back with your sob stories about basic training.

Adoption? Oh ya, back to trivializing the birthing process and turning women into incubators.

Gotcha.

How is that fence company coming? Thought you were a sophomore in poli-sci? Engineering drop out? Atheist that sees god in the smile of children? Pro-life fanatic? I dont even know how what to call you anymore.

I was going to correct you, but I'm just gonna let it go at this point, it's too funny to watch.



Bravo on

turn tail and run for the hills while turning around to bark every now and then, like you do every time you try this shit.

tho.

[Neosutra]

Nice way to dodge both questions.

"I worked on a farm, my life was hard". Hi, you arent he only american to work when he was in his early teens. You werent the only one to have menial labor jobs that are highly labor intensive (unless you know many desk jobs for teenagers). Ive worked my fair share of factories and field jobs, and am happy to never go back. I just find it funny you have such a chip on your shoulder that you really think you somehow worked harder then any other given person on this planet.

You wanna know hard work, go live in a 3rd world country (which I have). Hell, go fight for the country you live in (which I have). Man up for once.

The rest of your post was just the same retarded crying you normally do when you cant come back with a good response. Nice to see things dont change and you cant back up your "neural biological" superiority with actual facts, because that truth is you are just a scared little christian boy arguing with grownups about why you cant control the women around you. Go back to your building blocks now Plow, the adults are talking.

Ill call you when I need my fence rebuilt.

[Plow]

Keep on barking, the yelps are hilarious. Just let me suggest, keep running this time instead of trying a new attack in 7 minutes.

[Neosutra]

Oh Im sorry, I didnt mean to be rash with you Plow. You've had a hard life. There there now, it will be ok.

Lets band together and convince all of these unplanned pregnant mothers (whom are obviously teenage whores) to drop out of school and raise them with their fence building boyfriends! Oh what a society it will be!

Maybe a nice respectable couple will adopt your kid one day Plow =/.

[Plow]

Oh Im sorry, I didnt mean to be rash with you Plow. You've had a hard life. There there now, it will be ok.

Lets band together and convince all of these unplanned pregnant mothers (whom are obviously teenage whores) to drop out of school and raise them with their fence building boyfriends! Oh what a society it will be!

Maybe a nice respectable couple will adopt your kid one day Plow =/.

Oh god, the roffles... please keep going.


Should I correct him? This is pretty epic...

[ZarakiKujata]

Then I wouldn't have to be listening to your stupid, stubborn ass.

Don't forget you would also be in heaven chilling w/ jesus having some brews. Which sounds pretty fucking sweet.

edit: too lazy to read through everything I missed but how did this turn from a relatively civil and frank discussion of Islam to a less civil argument about Islam to abortion?