What Religion are you?

[Faris]

Those are not things which uniquely came from faith, they happened to come packaged with it, but none of those quite ring out as "gifts from god".

Any reasonably advanced society would reach those conclusions sooner or later.

People are people, you shouldn't own them or discriminate against them. Agreeing on a central standard for goods and trade is better for everyone.

These are not benefits which would only arise from faith, try again?

<_> you're really sounding like you just don't want to accept anything religion has offered.

im just curious, could you share with us, how did you reach to this point? or what made you that aggressive against God/Religion?

[Cow_k]

You guys ruined my postcount so quickly.

Ah, so this entire disagreement is around you using an incorrect definition for atheism.

I go by the definitions as they have been taught to me through various institutions and by what's readily accepted by the majority of society. Until that's changed, I likely won't change my view on that and since we've already had multiple arguments on definition with no agreement, I think it would be fruitless to start up again. I've stated where I'm coming from and that's as far as I'll go with that. A definition is just a starting point anyway, it's a label. Everyone falls into their own categories eventually, in fact, I wouldn't really find it fair to lump everyone in the world into 3 states anyway. To me, you state completely atheistic values but claim agnostic principals. You like to define that another way. That's fine. Best to leave it at that. There are plenty of people both acedemic and not that would agree with the definitions I've learned and there's plenty of the same type of people who follow yours. There's no right answer here. It's completely subjective.

FOR FUCKS SAKE...

Name me one thing which you can uniquely say Religion has done that has benefited the world, humanity, your sister, anything, or anyone.

ONE FUCKING THING, ONE TANGIBLE FUCKING GAIN CAUSED BY FAITH, IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?

What good has faith ever done?

I wouldn't call that good, exactly, but it's definitely something Religion enabled.

Again, it's a motivation. Religion has stopped many people from self-destructive behaviors as they felt they had something higher to turn to than themselves. I've stated a few things a few pages back that were motivated by religious ideals such as the mercy hospitals created during the plague while most others fled. Religion has also given countless people a feeling of community where before they had found a cold and uninviting world. Religion has also given hope to people who before had none. Again, a lot of religion (mostly those following intrinsic ideals) is mostly about peace of mind.

Could this have happened without religion? I'm sure there's perhaps the possibility of it, but it's ludicrous to even ask as many people who claim to have found peace of mind through religion have stated that they couldn't find it anywhere else. Maybe you find peace of mind through science, but again, that just doesn't work for everyone. Again, to many, the world is an empty, pointless waste of time and if there's any available reason to stop them from opening up gunfire and murdering a group of people just to try to feel something, I'm all for it whatever it is be it drugs, religion, or schooling.

[zoobernut]

I think what has come of this thread at least to me is that Organized religion if represented by math in terms of usefulness has equal numbers of good and bad on both sides of the equation so it really cancels itself out and is a wash.

Great it does all this good but it does all the bad and if it is held responsible for one it also has to be held responsible for the other which balances the equation and renders religion neutral which in the grand scheme of things is useless.

Granted for individuals it may be awesome, but if you believe in religion and want nothing but to do good in the world wouldn't you be willing to make a small sacrifice in your own life if it meant stopping all the evils in the world that are caused by religion?

[Faris]

I think what has come of this thread at least to me is that Organized religion if represented by math in terms of usefulness has equal numbers of good and bad on both sides of the equation so it really cancels itself out and is a wash.

Great it does all this good but it does all the bad and if it is held responsible for one it also has to be held responsible for the other which balances the equation and renders religion neutral which in the grand scheme of things is useless.

Granted for individuals it may be awesome, but if you believe in religion and want nothing but to do good in the world wouldn't you be willing to make a small sacrifice in your own life if it meant stopping all the evils in the world that are caused by religion?

or OR OR, hear me out now...since it holds the concept of excessive-ness (not even a word i know) is harmful....then can we agree that it is our fault as humans that religion can be bad?

[zoobernut]

I totally agree with you Firas that religion being bad is the fault of humans because humans invented religion so anytime it is bad the blame falls on human shoulders.

[Faris]

I totally agree with you Firas that religion being bad is the fault of humans because humans invented religion so anytime it is bad the blame falls on human shoulders.

and here we are again at square one..why do you do this to me?

[zoobernut]

Well because you set yourself up for that one and it was funny. I imagine the expression on your face when you read that was the same as in your avatar...

All joking aside there was a serious genuine question embedded in there.

With the understanding that man has the capacity for evil and can take advantage of situations, would you be willing to rid the world of the organized parts of religion and keep it private and to the individual in an attempt to quell violence resulting from the large scale organized parts of religion?

Not saying it is religions fault but imagine if you worshiped at home and in private and religion stayed that way only. No one was allowed to know each others beliefs however the religion is maintained there would just not be any government or governing body for that religion. Would you be ok with that? It would preserve your belief system completely minus the outward portion, this is hypothetical of course.

[Cow_k]

I think what has come of this thread at least to me is that Organized religion if represented by math in terms of usefulness has equal numbers of good and bad on both sides of the equation so it really cancels itself out and is a wash.

Great it does all this good but it does all the bad and if it is held responsible for one it also has to be held responsible for the other which balances the equation and renders religion neutral which in the grand scheme of things is useless.

Granted for individuals it may be awesome, but if you believe in religion and want nothing but to do good in the world wouldn't you be willing to make a small sacrifice in your own life if it meant stopping all the evils in the world that are caused by religion?

I know you're mostly just trolling at this point, but it's not as clear cut as you think. Should one religion that teaches tolerance be held responsible for the religions that don't? Again, people keep lumping shit together saying that all religion is bad when it's just blatantly not true. Might as well ban alcohol, video games, energy drinks, sports, etc. etc. etc.

[zoobernut]

I know you're mostly just trolling at this point, but it's not as clear cut as you think. Should one religion that teaches tolerance be held responsible for the religions that don't? Again, people keep lumping shit together saying that all religion is bad when it's just blatantly not true. Might as well ban alcohol, video games, energy drinks, sports, etc. etc. etc.

Name a single organized religion that throughout its entire history has no instance of anyone using it for evil and abusing their power over others based on that belief system otherwise your point is not valid. What a religion teaches and what people do with it are two completely different things and if you had any comprehension of what you read you would realize that my post was based on what people do with religion not what it teaches in completely ideal situations.

[Cow_k]

Now respond after looking at my last sentence. My statement is that there are many religions that do not promote hate or violence. If someone uses it the wrong way, the religion is not at fault in any way. There are plenty of religions that actively tell people to use peaceful methods, not violent ones. Religions that outright condemn the use of violence in EVERY situation (IE: Not even any such thing as a holy war).

Again, to do what you're saying we would have to destroy everything that anyone has ever perverted into something bad and that's not only impossible, it's crazy.

[zoobernut]

You just reposted essentially the same thing without re-reading my previous post that you were responding too and it still has as little to do with what I said as your first post did.

I said NOTHING about what the religion actively taught or condemned or anything like that. I was talking ONLY about how humans have used said religions and despite what the religion taught the attrocities carried out in the name of those religions.

Stop perverting what I posted and trying to yank the discussion in a direction that has nothing to do with what I originally was saying.

Edit: I did not say the religion was at fault, though I do contend that if we see something that is so commonly corrupted by man as religion and used so commonly as a weapon would you not work to eliminate the elements of religion that contribute to it being so easily corrupted?

I know IF I was religious and I saw this happening I would be willing to sacrifice my beliefs for the greater good if I thought it would help the world be a better place. I know that 99% of the time I quiet my tongue with respect to religious discussions (except on anonymous internet boards) because I know it is more important to have a peaceful world then to try to promote my personal beliefs. If every religion followed that philosophy then the world would be much more peaceful.

[Neosutra]

Islam eleminates class between the society. everyone is the same.

Except women and those people unfortunate enough to not be Islam..

edit: Oh ya, forgot Gays. I know how much you love them gays.

[Cow_k]

With the understanding that man has the capacity for evil and can take advantage of situations, would you be willing to rid the world of the organized parts of religion and keep it private and to the individual in an attempt to quell violence resulting from the large scale organized parts of religion?

Not saying it is religions fault but imagine if you worshiped at home and in private and religion stayed that way only. No one was allowed to know each others beliefs however the religion is maintained there would just not be any government or governing body for that religion. Would you be ok with that? It would preserve your belief system completely minus the outward portion, this is hypothetical of course.

This is what I'm responding to. You ask the question: Wouldn't it be better if everyone just kept to themselves. It's like telling a gay person they can't ever come out of the closet just because it causes controversy. And in the end, it wouldn't be right to expect people to live like this for the reasons I stated. And to go back to what I originally was responding to:

Granted for individuals it may be awesome, but if you believe in religion and want nothing but to do good in the world wouldn't you be willing to make a small sacrifice in your own life if it meant stopping all the evils in the world that are caused by religion?

Again, I retorted stating that there's no reason for all religion to take on the responsibility for the few that cause the major problems. Maybe if you said, "Should all Catholics disband to prevent all the evil done due to the beliefs of Catholicism" maybe I would have taken your post a little more seriously.

[zoobernut]

Well I actually had typed out a response specifically using Catholicism as an example but it is not the only religion in the world that has been used over and over in this way and it is not the only one that would benefit from this idea.

Using a gay person coming out as a parallel is just really stupid. One is an organized religion on a grand scale that *can* be used to control and influence masses of people to act a certain way. Being gay and coming out does not influence or ask others to act a certain way or tell them what to believe in.

I was exaggerating with a hypothetical situation to make a point.

[Cow_k]

Alright, it's probably just as likely to say that we shouldn't ever form a government and instead hold all our political ideals to ourselves because of the number of wars and fighting that politics cause. The point is, you can't just hide away a person's beliefs and people have the right to organize. To take away these basic freedoms would cause much more harm than good. It could never stop with religion.

Though I might point out that there are plenty of religious people who keep to themselves and only practice their beliefs around fellow believers. It's just a shame that the people who go crazy evangelistic are so vocal.

[zoobernut]

It really is a shame. If you can find a way to get rid of extremists and vocal religious people who make a point to try to "save" others and convert others then yeah no issues with organized religion. If you can find a way to stop all religiously motivated wars/murders/hostile takeovers, then yeah people can think and worship whatever they want.

I really don't care about what other people believe as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to believe what I want to believe. Too bad it doesn't always work that way.

[Neosutra]

Alright, it's probably just as likely to say that we shouldn't ever form a government and instead hold all our political ideals to ourselves because of the number of wars and fighting that politics cause. The point is, you can't just hide away a person's beliefs and people have the right to organize. To take away these basic freedoms would cause much more harm than good. It could never stop with religion.

Though I might point out that there are plenty of religious people who keep to themselves and only practice their beliefs around fellow believers. It's just a shame that the people who go crazy evangelistic are so vocal.

Except government has a use and need in organization and infrastructure of society and religion doesnt?

And it has been said a dozen times, the "moderates" do more harm than the extremist. Why is it a bad thing to want to rid our society of superstition and embrace logic and reason?

[Cow_k]

I completely agree with you, but abolishing all religion isn't the right way to do it. Try as people might, I'm sure there will never be a period of time in man's history where some people don't believe in some sort of greater power and the more you try to contain it, the more violent people will become.

I think it's more important for society to discourage and reject extreme evangelism, but that's also hard to do when we live in a country encouraging free speech. It's the same basic rights arguments that almost always lead to complications.

[zoobernut]

Muslim women uncover myths about the hijab - CNN.com

Very interesting and enlightening article on Cnn. Posting this for you Firas because I think it speaks to one of the posts you made about the veil earlier.

It really is interesting to see how something can mean one thing so strongly to one person and mean something completely differently and equally as strongly to another, even within the same religion and culture.

[Cow_k]

Except government has a use and need in organization and infrastructure of society and religion doesnt?

And it has been said a dozen times, the "moderates" do more harm than the extremist. Why is it a bad thing to want to rid our society of superstition and embrace logic and reason?

For the first point, government as a need is completely subjective. It was proven that people could survive just fine before government came to be, I'm sure we could survive without it. Maybe life would be a little more messy, but there's really no 'need' for it. Hell, there's no real need for anything, we just all do what we can to fill our time here. Some people just want to learn more, some people want the good things that go along with government and some people want to believe in something greater than themselves. It's their life and their choice. I sure as hell don't want anyone forcing 'logic and reason' down my throat if I don't give a shit about it and there will always be people who don't give a shit about if the universe is limitless or not. It's not like it matters in the long run anyway.