Should FFXIV take some aspects from MMO(x)?

[Correction]

I actually liked crafting stuff in FFXI. What I didn't like was shit breaking+mat loss because the game's RNG felt like fucking me over. Take away the RNG factor and crafting is always a fun distraction.

The trouble starts of course when you try to rely on crafting as your source of income. Then it's like playing russian roulette with your bank roll. RNG-based HQ system = nothx. Secret recipes that never get revealed = nothx. Multiple Subskill requirements for a single synthesis = nothx.

Simplification is best in this regard.

[SilverBreeze]

I actually liked crafting stuff in FFXI. What I didn't like was shit breaking+mat loss because the game's RNG felt like fucking me over. Take away the RNG factor and crafting is always a fun distraction.

The trouble starts of course when you try to rely on crafting as your source of income. Then it's like playing russian roulette with your bank roll. RNG-based HQ system = nothx. Secret recipes that never get revealed = nothx. Multiple Subskill requirements for a single synthesis = nothx.

Simplification is best in this regard.

The thing I didn't like was the lack of actual ingame information about crafting, and all the invisible subcrafts and such? Admittedly I didn't experience as much of that as some people, but having to have Alchemy leveled to cook certain things and blowing the up because I didn't know that really pissed me off heh.

Speaking of lack of information. Goblin Drink, need I say more? lol

I agree though, FFXI would have been a lot more enjoyable crafting wise if it weren't so RNG based and so secretive.

[Meresgi]

And it's SE, so I doubt we'll see a change to the clipping issues I'm talking about. Did you know that you can add invisible walls to places where you're not supposed to pass through? Cause to me it sounds like you're clueless as to how jumping works in other games. For instance, WoW's clipping issues are not at all noticeable seeing as you can jump right over/past them.

You have to be pretty retarded to believe people want the ability to jump so that they can go places where they're not supposed to.

Maybe you shouldn't then?

Then why have jumping in? WoW's clipping issues arnt noticeable? How about female Tauren not being able to get through ANY doorways or anything while mounted, or not able to move into certain spots because of their model clipping. And adding an invisible wall? Yeah so you can complain when you jump over the 3 ft tall log and hit an invisible wall and suddenly start crying about how it shouldnt be there. Jumping makes sense in games like Aion, but shouldnt be in any other MMO imo unless they actually feature a need. As in jumping over pitfalls and such.

[Correction]

Jumping makes sense in games like Aion, but shouldnt be in any other MMO imo unless they actually feature a need. As in jumping over pitfalls and such.

I don't view it as a pure game mechanics issue, but rather something that introduces some personality into character animations. Why are so many self-screenshots of chracters doing the new dance emotes in FFXI? Not because it gives them +5 Ranged Attack, but because it's a way to make your character livelier.

The fact that you can jump over small obstacles is just a bonus. Why walk down a u-shaped staircase when you can just jump the rail? That's fun innit?

[aru]

female Tauren not being able to get through ANY doorways or anything while mounted

bwahaha

[100percentile]

I really have to wonder what you find so retarded about UI Customization to the degree that it exists in WoW. What on earth is objectionable about being able to move your party frames around, etc.

Not objecting to being able to move party frames around, I'm objecting to addons like questhelper which basically completes every single quest in the game for you. S-E isn't stupid enough to allow WoW's level of UI customization so I'm not too worried really.

[Elcura]

It's just a way to be even lazier. If I wanted to finish a quest in some MMO I could easily look up how to do it with some effort. Addons just make things easier or quicker.

[Koul]

Not objecting to being able to move party frames around, I'm objecting to addons like questhelper which basically completes every single quest in the game for you. S-E isn't stupid enough to allow WoW's level of UI customization so I'm not too worried really.

Who. Cares. This type of thinking reminds me when TPparty first came out for FF11 and people who didn't have it were bitching.

If people didn't use questhelper they would just keep alt-tabbing and looking online. all it does is save a person time. what the shit is the issue. Q_Q_Q

I don't think WoW's UI allowance is stupid... it's just a way to personalize the game for yourself, if that means having questhelper to save you x amount of time over y days/weeks then what does it matter. Let people play the game the way they want to.

The funny thing about the people bitching so much regarding addons is that. You DON'T NEED TO HAVE THEM ON. It's optional! That's why they're called addons! The "I don't want 'em so no one should have 'em!" attitude is A-grade bitchyness. Piss off.

on-topic

I hated FF11's crafting system. The gathering system wasn't too bad. I liked the vanilla wow system where some recipes/materials were drops from only one thing. Yeah, they can get dominated but I think games need those type of things. Mabye not like mythic weapon rare but also not casual-rare.

It also would be cool if you could rework weapons but keep the same abilities, even if it was just a variety of skin colors that'd be fine. I can already see it happening where everyone looks the same cause the equipment has the uber skills.

also a hair-dresser function would be neat. gets kind of old to look the same FOREVER

[100percentile]

Who. Cares. This type of thinking reminds me when TPparty first came out for FF11 and people who didn't have it were bitching.

If people didn't use questhelper they would just keep alt-tabbing and looking online. all it does is save a person time. what the shit is the issue. Q_Q_Q

If the missions/quests are well done there is no need for a "I am retarded tell me exactly where to go/what to do" addon, though I'm sure people will still want one even if things are being spelled out for them when they accept a quest. ADHD is a bitch eh?

Btw you go and fuck yourself plz. Bye.

[Yeargdribble]

How can you say QuestHelper is horrible for doing quests for you? How many quests in FFXI can you realistically complete without consulting some online info. Some are okay, then some are vague, and then some are needle-in-a-haystack bad. How is using an addon more broken than alt-tabbing every few seconds.

Of course, FFXI is a horribly unfair example because the quests are so ridiculous and vague. QH isn't really needed in a game like WoW. Then you look at how quests are managed in LOTRO or Aion and you see that it can get even better. FFXIV just needs to have well designed quests and a reasonable interface for keeping them all straight and reminding you where you are on a given quest at a given time.

If it gives us that then this arguing over addons like QuestHelper is just pointless.

[100percentile]

No arguing on my end~ people just love going all internet warrior over the simplest things.

and

FFXIV just needs to have well designed quests and a reasonable interface for keeping them all straight and reminding you where you are on a given quest at a given time.

Is what I was getting at. Hopefully there is no need for the amount of addons people usually have to add to WoW. Having to scavenge the internet to find something to make the game playable is stupid. Cue~ some WoW expert coming in and telling me how he has played WoW for 17 years and WoW most definit- I don't give a shit so don't even post, bye.

[Koul]

No arguing on my end~ people just love going all internet warrior over the simplest things.

and

Is what I was getting at. Hopefully there is no need for the amount of addons people usually have to add to WoW. Having to scavenge the internet to find something to make the game playable is stupid. Cue~ some WoW expert coming in and telling me how he has played WoW for 17 years and WoW most definit- I don't give a shit so don't even post, bye.

lulz at WoW expert.

See, my issue with you is that you obviously don't know what your talking about when it comes to WoW so you should keep your face out of it, which you aren't. I'm not claiming to know everything about WoW or FF11 but I've played both. /internet warrior

how about you post shit when it's something you know what you're talking about? kay?

[SilverBreeze]

I don't know how else to put it, but...

The vast majority of people who play WoW on these boards have played, or still play FFXI.

Once again, lets look at the title of this thread, incase you stumbled in here thinking it was something else.

"Should FFXIV take some aspects from MMO(x)?"

You are in the wrong thread to be bitching about people who play WoW, LoTRO, Warhammer, or any other MMO coming in here and discussing what they would like from those games to see in this thread. That is the entire point of this thead. BG Class of August 2009 needs to simmer the fuck down.

Anyway.

There is a huge difference between the way you quest in WoW and FFXI. In FFXI you don't need to complete over a thousand quests to hit max level, in WoW you do. Final Fantasy's quests are mostly optional, and they are not required to level up, where as in WoW they are. I can see the merit of having a QuestHelper type addon for the game, but at the same time, the quests aren't nearly as important as they are in FFXI. At the same time, I'm sure damn near everyone has alt tabbed or looked online for a guide for some sort of quest, CoP mission guides, Dynamis pull information, so how is that any different?

A lot of people think that addons are the devil or something, but in all seriousness they're not much different from what you use in FFXI right now, so seeing them added is something that I don't really see being a bad thing.

Customizable Unit Frame Addons - The one thing I'd like to see in FF14, I hated the way the UI looked in FFXI and I would love to be able to move things around.

Chat Addons - I like the way Linkshell chat worked in FFXI (except for the whole zoning and missing everything that was said for the last 10 seconds) I would like to see that every linkshell you have gives you a certain channel tab in your chat that you can click on to see what's being said there.

Addons like Recount to parse DPS - People parse DPS in FFXI all the time, no difference.

Addons like Quest Helper - No different than having FFXIclopedia and Somepage open and alt-tabbing and looking at how to do quests. Sites like Erecia's CoP and ToAU Guide I know tons of people used that.

Addons like Equipment Manager - Windower and scripts with your gear in them.

Boss mod addons - If the game is anything like FFXI, I wouldn't expect to need these, but hopefully it's not. The only thing you really needed to watch for in FFXI was like "Oh Khim has his wings up." The fights weren't nearly as complicated as they are in WoW. This could possibly change though with the way FF14 works.

Addons that show your recast time or buff duration - No different than the addons in Windower, or sitting around with your spell/ability list open, except you can actually do other things while you're doing so.

The basic addons people use for WoW are not that different from anything I used in FFXI, so I don't see there really being a problem. Some people want to customize their game experience to something they are comfortable with, not what the game gives you, cause lets face it, with millions of people playing an online game, not everyone is going to be happy with the same UI. You can put restrictions in to what you can and can't change, but different people like different things, so being able to alter the most basic parts of your UI is something that I don't think should be a big problem.

[Kilhart]

I don't know how else to put it, but...

The vast majority of people who play WoW on these boards have played, or still play FFXI.

Once again, lets look at the title of this thread, incase you stumbled in here thinking it was something else.

"Should FFXIV take some aspects from MMO(x)?"

You are in the wrong thread to be bitching about people who play WoW, LoTRO, Warhammer, or any other MMO coming in here and discussing what they would like from those games to see in this thread. That is the entire point of this thead. BG Class of August 2009 needs to simmer the fuck down.

Anyway.

There is a huge difference between the way you quest in WoW and FFXI. In FFXI you don't need to complete over a thousand quests to hit max level, in WoW you do. Final Fantasy's quests are mostly optional, and they are not required to level up, where as in WoW they are. I can see the merit of having a QuestHelper type addon for the game, but at the same time, the quests aren't nearly as important as they are in FFXI. At the same time, I'm sure damn near everyone has alt tabbed or looked online for a guide for some sort of quest, CoP mission guides, Dynamis pull information, so how is that any different?

A lot of people think that addons are the devil or something, but in all seriousness they're not much different from what you use in FFXI right now, so seeing them added is something that I don't really see being a bad thing.

Customizable Unit Frame Addons - The one thing I'd like to see in FF14, I hated the way the UI looked in FFXI and I would love to be able to move things around.

Chat Addons - I like the way Linkshell chat worked in FFXI (except for the whole zoning and missing everything that was said for the last 10 seconds) I would like to see that every linkshell you have gives you a certain channel tab in your chat that you can click on to see what's being said there.

Addons like Recount to parse DPS - People parse DPS in FFXI all the time, no difference.

Addons like Quest Helper - No different than having FFXIclopedia and Somepage open and alt-tabbing and looking at how to do quests. Sites like Erecia's CoP and ToAU Guide I know tons of people used that.

Addons like Equipment Manager - Windower and scripts with your gear in them.

Boss mod addons - If the game is anything like FFXI, I wouldn't expect to need these, but hopefully it's not. The only thing you really needed to watch for in FFXI was like "Oh Khim has his wings up." The fights weren't nearly as complicated as they are in WoW. This could possibly change though with the way FF14 works.

Addons that show your recast time or buff duration - No different than the addons in Windower, or sitting around with your spell/ability list open, except you can actually do other things while you're doing so.

The basic addons people use for WoW are not that different from anything I used in FFXI, so I don't see there really being a problem. Some people want to customize their game experience to something they are comfortable with, not what the game gives you, cause lets face it, with millions of people playing an online game, not everyone is going to be happy with the same UI. You can put restrictions in to what you can and can't change, but different people like different things, so being able to alter the most basic parts of your UI is something that I don't think should be a big problem.

I would have read all of that but I was mesmerized by your avatar.

[Yeargdribble]

Sadly we're going to be boxed into a corner with addons in FFXIV. There will be the stance that they are an unfair advantage against the PS3 users. Silver Breeze nails nearly every aspect correctly though in what we need.

First of all, Blizzard learns from the customers and their addons. For the sake of streamlining, Blizz often integrates popular -yet relatively low-key- addons into the base game. There are two things SE can learn here. Most importantly, learn from your players and listen to them. Next, SE needs to not only be looking at WoW, but looking at how addons function in WoW to give us more flexibility in the wake of not having any real addon options (PS3, etc.).

The UI needs to be customizable from within the game. A fantastic example of how to do this is in LOTRO which doesn't allow addons. You just hit some shortcut key and suddenly every UI element is able to be moved, adjusted in size or even made invisible. Very simple, very streamlined, allows a great breadth of freedom without need for an addon.


In WoW you may have a few gear sets for different specs/situations, but it's nothing to the extent of what people manage in FFXI. FFXI has so many costumes and if you're a job like RDM you spend more time blinked out than blinked in because of gear swaps. My point is, for a game that revolves around gear swapping (whether intentional or not), FFXI didn't give us room to do this very effectively while WoW, where it's not even possible to change on the fly, mid-fight, eventually integrated their own equipment manager following many popular addons that did the job. Regardless of the direction FFXIV takes with instantly swappable gear, they need to have some gear management options far better than what they have.


tl;dr version... Make the game in such a way that people won't feel like they need addons.

[lost071]

Sadly we're going to be boxed into a corner with addons in FFXIV. There will be the stance that they are an unfair advantage against the PS3 users. Silver Breeze nails nearly every aspect correctly though in what we need.

First of all, Blizzard learns from the customers and their addons. For the sake of streamlining, Blizz often integrates popular -yet relatively low-key- addons into the base game. There are two things SE can learn here. Most importantly, learn from your players and listen to them. Next, SE needs to not only be looking at WoW, but looking at how addons function in WoW to give us more flexibility in the wake of not having any real addon options (PS3, etc.).

The UI needs to be customizable from within the game. A fantastic example of how to do this is in LOTRO which doesn't allow addons. You just hit some shortcut key and suddenly every UI element is able to be moved, adjusted in size or even made invisible. Very simple, very streamlined, allows a great breadth of freedom without need for an addon.


In WoW you may have a few gear sets for different specs/situations, but it's nothing to the extent of what people manage in FFXI. FFXI has so many costumes and if you're a job like RDM you spend more time blinked out than blinked in because of gear swaps. My point is, for a game that revolves around gear swapping (whether intentional or not), FFXI didn't give us room to do this very effectively while WoW, where it's not even possible to change on the fly, mid-fight, eventually integrated their own equipment manager following many popular addons that did the job. Regardless of the direction FFXIV takes with instantly swappable gear, they need to have some gear management options far better than what they have.


tl;dr version... Make the game in such a way that people won't feel like they need addons.

There's a difference between listening to your players and just giving into whoever cries the hardest. I do think se needs to listen to the community more, however not to the extent that blizzard does. Blizzard does drastic class balance every patch and it drastically alters the balance of power creating a new flavor of the month class every patch.

[SilverBreeze]

LoTRO pretty much has the best managable UI without Addons, you hit Ctrl-\ and you can move and stretch and shrink any part of the UI, it's amazing. I would love to see that in FFXIV.

There's a difference between listening to your players and just giving into whoever cries the hardest. I do think se needs to listen to the community more, however not to the extent that blizzard does. Blizzard does drastic class balance every patch and it drastically alters the balance of power creating a new flavor of the month class every patch.

I think there's a fine balance between SE's total neglect of their players, and Blizzard's seemingly over attentiveness (is that a word?) to their players. I definitely agree with you there.

[Kurokikaze]

Agreed. SE needs to see what Blizzard is doing as far as user/dev interaction and do something similar but not over do it. I played Hunter in WoW so I know exactly what lost071 is talking about when he says "new flavor of the month class" (hi2u BM one month, Surv the next, oh wait now its MM, shit back to Surv).

I've said this before and I'll say it again, SE needs official forums this time around and they need to listen their players if even a little. Red-headed step-child treatment isn't going to get them very far, should they choose that route again.

[McGoonagle]

When SE said shortly after the original announcements that it hasn't learned anything from other MMO games, I'm pretty certain that they were talking in terms of the nuts and bolts programming and things not visible to the player.

Much of that is probably governed by externalia like formal standards, specifications and assorted regulatory entities and may not be something that they can negotiate over.

I do hope that they have picked up good ideas about user interfaces and playability (although FFXIV looks like a bit of a departure from other MMOs in the way it is intended to be played.) Especially hope they work on customer service and support.

[McGoonagle]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, SE needs official forums this time around and they need to listen their players if even a little. Red-headed step-child treatment isn't going to get them very far, should they choose that route again.

I'll second that.