Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Lucavi]

Airship will be nice for sure if it's real time flying, but being able to fly close enough to see the monsters, the players and other details has its charm as well.

Doubt we'll see that. PS3 limitations, although WoW has flying low enough to the ground in certain areas that you can see mobs.

Seriously though, that probably depends on just how they handle the flying. FFXI was a separate zone for flying, but if everything is truly seamless and the airships fly low, I don't see why they wouldn't incorporate it in.

[miokomioko]

I never had a huge problem with XI's 5-min weakness, but I wish it was either changed to something along the lines of...

a) an injury system like Dragon Age upon being resurrected, with the type of injury possibly based on what type of attack killed you (be it fire, ice, piercing, bludgeoning, etc). Perhaps the strength of the killing blow affects duration of the injury (opening windows for big HNM moves inflicting a variety or long-lasting injuries if killed by it)

or

b) a smooth and gradually fading standard weakness instead of XI's weak-for-5-minutes-and-BAM-you're-fine. A gradual loss of hp/mp/stat/speed/recast penalties would create a little more of a leniency and varying degrees of when it was realistic/strategic to hop back into battle after being helped back up. Resting should speed up the process, as it is a reward for not playing the game for a period.

[Kaylia]

I never had a huge problem with XI's 5-min weakness, but I wish it was either changed to something along the lines of...

a) an injury system like Dragon Age upon being resurrected, with the type of injury possibly based on what type of attack killed you (be it fire, ice, piercing, bludgeoning, etc). Perhaps the strength of the killing blow affects duration of the injury (opening windows for big HNM moves inflicting a variety or long-lasting injuries if killed by it)

or

b) a smooth and gradually fading standard weakness instead of XI's weak-for-5-minutes-and-BAM-you're-fine. A gradual loss of hp/mp/stat/speed/recast penalties would create a little more of a leniency and varying degrees of when it was realistic/strategic to hop back into battle after being helped back up. Resting should speed up the process, as it is a reward for not playing the game for a period.

Or they could do something like they did in WoW at some point (with outside NM). Weakness is a status that is given when you're killed by certain HNM they don't want you to zerg. In xp party, besieged, campaign...etc, the weakness doesn't serve any real purpose, and could be removed completely. It doesnt matter if the player die in these situations, no need to penalize him.

I never really considered weakness to be an issue though, (even if there is certain annoyance involved like blood aggro when you unweaken, idling for 5min often lead to party disbanding/long afk...etc)

[Celeras]

It's like you conveniently forget that it's not convenient at all to set your homepoint anywhere far from a city. The time you might save for a death will be lost when you will be running back to the city later. It's not "better".

You also forget that not every class have access to teleport/warp spell, and while items partially make up for it, long cool down and level requirement prevent you from using them at time (and there is a large price tag involved with many). Not every class have access to sneak/invi either (particularly true long time ago).

Dying while traveling can only happen from personal error? Sneak/invi never wore off at a bad time? You never lagged? And god forbid you to miss evaluate the aggro distance or duration of your sneak. The only fair penalty is a cruel death to aggro and a 15 minutes walk.


The time wasted by a death in FFXI when there is no raise around is huge, and well above what it should be. Dying next to a healer isn't so bad, but when you're solo or without raise, it blows.

I wasn't trying to state the contrary. Just pointing out that there were numerous options to make those types of situations extremely less time-consuming. Let's be honest, if the main city AH was accessible from home citys, there would be no reason to feel like it was a bad decision to move your homepoint somewhere closer for these occasions. In which case the system would work perfectly, imo.

[Kaylia]

I wasn't trying to state the contrary. Just pointing out that there were numerous options to make those types of situations extremely less time-consuming. Let's be honest, if the main city AH was accessible from home citys, there would be no reason to feel like it was a bad decision to move your homepoint somewhere closer for these occasions. In which case the system would work perfectly, imo.

It's true there is unorthodox method to travel faster in specific situation, but movement in overall are still painfully long. More than your average mmo, and more than they should in a "game".

You might not notice it since you're used to it, but clock the amount of time you spend doing anything trivial in FFXI (even walking to the AH). It's enough to makes most people very sad.

[Talka]

I don't care if there's home points again, as long as I don't lose exp. There's nothing more frustrating than de-leveling after you get a new gear set.

You guys are spoiled rotten. I've played games where you lose EVERY PIECE OF GEAR ON YOU when you die, even your money. There's no experience loss, but the cost of replacing all your gear all the damn time can be ridiculous.

Honestly, losing 2400 exp (which is a laughable amount anyway, considering you actually only lose 1200 if you remember your reraise items), sounds a lot better to me than losing all my shit. This system works just fine.

[Lucavi]

You guys are spoiled rotten. I've played games where you lose EVERY PIECE OF GEAR ON YOU when you die, even your money. There's no experience loss, but the cost of replacing all your gear all the damn time can be ridiculous.

Honestly, losing 2400 exp (which is a laughable amount anyway, considering you actually only lose 1200 if you remember your reraise items), sounds a lot better to me than losing all my shit. This system works just fine.

How old are those games? You're talking about "hardcore" games that also institute "hardcore" grinds to the point of stupidity. Even if you didn't lose all of your items upon death, those hardcore grinding games will penalize you with an entire day's worth of lost experience upon death.

This is the FF series. Death is never treated too harshly in the games, unless you're a NPC that starts blinking in a 16-bit cutscene. FFXIV will not turn into any sort of Lineage, Diablo II's Hardcore mode, or Darkfall Online. The grand majority of modern-era PVE MMORPGS (which both FF games easily fit into) do not have drop-on-death rules, and typically treat death as an inconvenience, not a punishment.

For the record, I don't really care about XP loss. I'd be 100% fine with it if there was no level down option. I found it absolutely retarded that you could somehow receive a hit to the cranium so forceful that you forgot how to put on certain pieces of equipment. I remember LSmates that turned down helping to fight certain tough NMs because they were too close to deleveling and played jobs that wouldn't be able to offer much assistance in the fight if they hit 74 and lost their gear.

I don't know of a game out there that doesn't punish you for dying. There should be a punishment. Death isn't supposed to happen. We get that. The punishment is typically always some sort of time-waster: either a loss of money (wasting time to recover it or make it back), a loss of experience (wasting time to recover it or make it back) or a loss of gear (wasting extreme time if you can't loot your corpse before someone else gets to it).

Imagine the QQ back in the MPK era if deaths resulted in full loot drops. Nobody would play this game. It was frustrating enough just hitting 75 with certain jobs. Now everyone in the Aery drops their pants for a naked party because some idiot AOEs a bunch of darters?

Its not spoiled to not expect shitty -old- concepts to find their way into -new- games. Hardcore PVP and obscure free-to-play PVE games with archaic full-loot drops fail for a reason. Just check out how Darkfall Online is doing.

[Kaylia]

You guys are spoiled rotten. I've played games where you lose EVERY PIECE OF GEAR ON YOU when you die, even your money. There's no experience loss, but the cost of replacing all your gear all the damn time can be ridiculous.

Honestly, losing 2400 exp (which is a laughable amount anyway, considering you actually only lose 1200 if you remember your reraise items), sounds a lot better to me than losing all my shit. This system works just fine.

and I quitted game where I lost every single pieces of gears. It's not fun.

Well, it's kinda funny in retrospect, but I wouldnt want to go back to UO, diablo 1 or Lineage. Seeing weeks of effort go to waste is retarded. I'm not saying something like this can't work (ie: harcore mode in diablo II), but in the current context, no mmo should put his playerbase through something like this.

[Kawfee]

How old are those games?

I'm not the OP but EVE is a game that comes to mind that isn't that old and has a large following. When you die you lose everything you have equipped or in your inventory. It's definitely a different style of play, where rather than blowing all your money on the best item you can afford, you blow all your money on the best item you can afford 10 of at once. Obviously this game is primarily PVP, although there is a lot of PVE in it as well. Just an example. (None of which means I want this system in FFXIV or anything like it.)

I'd be 100% fine with it if there was no level down option. I found it absolutely retarded that you could somehow receive a hit to the cranium so forceful that you forgot how to put on certain pieces of equipment. I remember LSmates that turned down helping to fight certain tough NMs because they were too close to deleveling and played jobs that wouldn't be able to offer much assistance in the fight if they hit 74 and lost their gear.

I agree, I almost don't mind the xp loss, or a gil loss due to item durability loss that requires repair (especially if its player repair that could help drive the economy), but you should not be able to delevel.

[Lucavi]

Diablo did it well because they gave you a choice, and there were perks for making a hardcore character.

Having that split between Hardcore and non-hardcore essentially gave the game another level of online depth. The Hardcore community was typically much more friendly and team-oriented, because they had to be. Excluding the random PKing idiots that tried to ruin everyones day (and the Iron Maiden oblivion knights), I had a lot of fun risking it all in hardcore.

The difference between that and a MMO is that I'm not paying a monthly payment there, and the sense of progression is much faster in that style of game. You can have a high level, well-geared player in 2-3 days of serious playing in Diablo. Not so in FFXI.

Again, imagine how hilariously empty FFXI would have been come RotZ if they had implemented a feature like that. In a game that, even when it was brand new, was known for the length of time required to advance to late-game, and in a game where a peacock charm attained at level 30 could last you through 75 all the way until CoP... hah, just imagine it. The rivers of QQ would flood the earth, and with good reason.

Edit: Yes, EVE certainly comes to mind, but EVE is a bit like Darkfall Online where it is marketed solely at the PVP crowd. If the game is all about PVP, losing everything you don't bank is fine, because you can just roll in a group and gank another guy and take all of his.

FFXI is a game where you spend 99% of the time working with people for months or years to attain a certain gear set, and to lose all of that because of some random MPK or a lag spike at a nid would just send the community into a frothing frenzy.

[Kaylia]

I agree, I almost don't mind the xp loss, or a gil loss due to item durability loss that requires repair (especially if its player repair that could help drive the economy), but you should not be able to delevel.

I never deleleved to 74 in 6+ years of FFXI, people who had this issue were just lazy fuck who didn't want to grab buffer.

[Vandole]

I never deleleved to 74 in 6+ years of FFXI, people who had this issue were just lazy fuck who didn't want to grab buffer.

i had buffer but shitty dynamis shells caused my pld to delevel all the time. my first shell had a rule of no r3's to encourage not fucking up.

...i only stayed with them for two runs

i really hope you can't delevel in 14.

[Kaylia]

i had buffer but shitty dynamis shells caused my pld to delevel all the time. my first shell had a rule of no r3's to encourage not fucking up.

...i only stayed with them for two runs

i really hope you can't delevel in 14.

I have trouble to picture someone who had it worse than me with Raise. I was generally scoring the "highest death count" on my server, and R1 is what I'm taking 99% of the time at ls events (asking R1 is the best way to motivate people, because many feel bad about it, and will start paying attention after). If my buffer was getting dangerously low, I was simply using rr2 hairpin.


It's true I had to make an effort to avoid downleveling, but still, it's something everyone should be able to do without any problems. The real issue is that people could turn their merit on before getting 44k buffer.


And don't get me wrong, I won't complain if xp loss is gone, I just don't think the downleveling part was really bad.

[Kawfee]

I never deleleved to 74 in 6+ years of FFXI, people who had this issue were just lazy fuck who didn't want to grab buffer.

Surprisingly a large part of the game exists before level 75.

[Kaylia]

Surprisingly a large part of the game exists before level 75.

1. Is it really a "large part" of the game?
2. Can you tell me the difference between a -1000xp that lead to a level down and one that does not?

In the event your next argument is "but what if i sold my old weapon" (doesnt matter if it's an armor piece). Well, you're out of luck, but was it really an issue for you? I havent seen it happen once in my ffxi career, and while it's very possible, the probability that players already got ride of his weapon (especially when you take into consideration how often you change it) is slim.

Missing your new ws, ja, or armor for a few fights? Do you really think it's an issue and will change your xp per hour by an amount that matter?

[edit]
The only issue one could have with it are psychological, but if you try to rationalize it 5 seconds, you would realize that the real impact are barely existant before 75.

[Lucavi]

1. Is it really a "large part" of the game?
2. Can you tell me the difference between a -1000xp that lead to a level down and one that does not?

In the event your next argument is "but what if i sold my old weapon" (doesnt matter if it's an armor piece). Well, you're out of luck, but was it really an issue for you? I havent seen it happen once in my ffxi career, and while it's very possible, the probability that players already got ride of his weapon (especially when you take into consideration how often you change it) is slim.

Missing your new ws, ja, or armor for a few fights? Do you really think it's an issue and will change your xp per hour by an amount that matter?

[edit]
The only issue one could have with it are psychological, but if you try to rationalize it 5 seconds, you would realize that the real impact are barely existant before 75.

Ignoring 99% of this because it isn't relevant, but the sweeping majority of things that you'd fight in the game and potentially lose enough exp on to delevel are not things that you're actually gaining exp at any point.

For example: you aren't gaining xp in dynamis, which can take hours. You aren't gaining XP when low-manning jailers, or fighting AV. You aren't gaining XP on an ultima fight (back when it was actually a challenge).

You can't presume that your experiences are the experiences on this game as a whole. Different people have seen and gone through different stuff. I, personally, rarely de-leveled, because the only thing I truly enjoyed in the game was beating the shit out of mobs with my Drg, and meriting, so I was always capped on Drg, Brd, and Pld, but I've seen enough DDs drop over and over or Brds de-level and lose their sky build (again, back when it was useful and common) to hate the concept.

Waste my time, sure. Every other game is doing it because no one has the brains (or the balls) to differentiate, but don't take even more steps backward and waste my time to the point where people on the fringe are actually dissuaded from performing some of the content in the game.

That is simply poor planning and design, unless you are admitting as a company that you do not want people to experience the "vastness" of end-game content.

[Kaylia]

99% of my post is obviously irrelevant when I was specifically addressing a quote about the game before level 75.

Surprisingly a large part of the game exists before level 75.

If you were referencing to my previous posts on the topic, then yes, I agree not every experiences are the same. However, people who don't grab buffer are still lazy fuck who have no respect for the people that carry them. I hated xping, and going out of my way to get buffer was a torture.

There is no reason for your xp to hover around 5k when it could be around 44k. Unless you want to make an argument for mule, or people who recently dinged 75, you should never lose your level. And don't tell me it's common for people to lose 40k and not get the opportunies to get it back. The few times I ever got close to it was when I was holding NM with R1 while the group was reraise


But I'm wasting 4 merits back? So fucking what?


[edit]
And to anyone who is about to tell me "BUT ITS 4 MERITS POINT WASTED", just invest these 4 points in the "reduce the chance to downlevel" trait, it's worth it.


[edit2]

And I hate xp loss, I don't think it's a good idea. However, losing xp =/= downleveling, and downleveling.


I also agree the concept of "downleveling" isnt needed. However, it should -never- be an issue at 75 for anyone, because the game let you get a buffer than is more than enough.

[Lucavi]

99% of my post is obviously irrelevant when I was specifically addressing a quote about the game before level 75.



If you were referencing to my previous posts on the topic, then yes, I agree not every experiences are the same. However, people who don't grab buffer are still lazy fuck who have no respect for the people that carry them. I hated xping, and going out of my way to get buffer was a torture.

There is no reason for your xp to hover around 5k when it could be around 44k. Unless you want to make an argument for mule, or people who recently dinged 75, you should never lose your level. And don't tell me it's common for people to lose 40k and not get the opportunies to get it back. The few times I ever got close to it was when I was holding NM with R1 while the group was reraise


But I'm wasting 4 merits back? So fucking what?


[edit]
And to anyone who is about to tell me "BUT ITS 4 MERITS POINT WASTED", just invest these 4 points in the "reduce the chance to downlevel" trait, it's worth it.

Irrelevant to what I was discussing, thus my comment stands. I was not the one who remarked about pre-75.

I'm not saying you aren't correct in your mindset. People should have a buffer. I -always- had a buffer unless I was on brd because I hated brd and actually didnt mind de-leveling so I could then switch to something fun like drg or pld, but I digress.

Delelevling should simply not exist. It is a stupid concept. They've never done it in any other FF - it was only put in to increase the grinding and time-spent since this was a MMO that their customers were actually paying for. It is an archaic, unnecessary, and tacked-on feature designed to draw out additional cash at the expense of the player's sanity (at certain times).

Of course, you can always make the argument that "it exists; deal with it", in which case I would agree. Everyone is dealing with it, but I would counter with "does it deserve to be in the next MMO when taken into account that SE has said that they've learned from a few other MMOs and from some of their previous mistakes?"

Does SE consider it a solid system? I suppose that is the truly important question.

Edit: Then we're pretty much in agreement. Lazy people are lazy, but stupid system is stupid.

[Kaylia]

It's not that your post "didn't stand", it's just weird to quote a large post and say 99% of this is irrelevant to what I'm going to say. Anyway, that is in itself irrelevant to the thread...

Delelevling should simply not exist. It is a stupid concept. They've never done it in any other FF - it was only put in to increase the grinding and time-spent since this was a MMO that their customers were actually paying for. It is an archaic, unnecessary, and tacked-on feature designed to draw out additional cash at the expense of the player's sanity (at certain times).

Arguably, no ff before were online, so it doesnt have to follow the same formula

It's the xp loss that inreases the grinding, not downleveling. I make a distinction between both, because like I said, this loss should not make you lose a level if you're playing the game they wanted you to play. The only reason why "losing a level" exist at 75 is make sure people eventually "pay up" for their cumulated death.


The game you're describing is WoW. It barely penalize you for death, and I agree it's better this way. People still rage quit all the time, but giving stupid players less oportunies to be stupid is always good thing (don't think for a second it stops retardation though, they will always manage to fuck up your day somehow).



[edit]
As for the system being stupid, the amount of "stupid waste of time" in FFXI are common. In fact, if you removed them, the game would probably vanish. I don't understand why you would target grinding buffer more than..idk, farming something shitty drop rate, or not having "warp" easily avaible.

[Lucavi]

It's not that your post "didn't stand", it's just weird to quote a large post and say 99% of this is irrelevant to what I'm going to say. Anyway, that is in itself irrelevant to the thread...



Arguably, no ff before were online, so it doesnt have to follow the same formula

It's the xp loss that inreases the grinding, not downleveling. I make a distinction between both, because like I said, this loss should not make you lose a level if you're playing the game they wanted you to play. The only reason why "losing a level" exist at 75 is make sure people eventually "pay up" for their cumulated death.


The game you're describing is WoW. It barely penalize you for death, and I agree it's better this way. People still rage quit all the time, but giving stupid players less oportunies to be stupid is always good thing (don't think for a second it stops retardation though, they will always manage to fuck up your day somehow).



[edit]
As for the system being stupid, the amount of "stupid waste of time" in FFXI are common. In fact, if you removed them, the game would probably vanish. I don't understand why you would target grinding buffer more than..idk, farming something shitty drop rate, or not having "warp" easily avaible.

I'm not describing WoW, I'm describing nearly every other PVE-based MMO. FFXI is the only one that actually allows you to de-level. The grind itself is annoying, but most all MMOs have the death-loss grind. That's at least a corporate standard. FFXI takes it a step farther by not only penalizing you with a mandatory grind to recover what has been lost, but outdoes the others by potentially penalizing your impact on future fights, or on a current fight with your clan/guild/LS/ect. That's a no-no.


I'm not targeting other forms of grind because, at the risk of summoning BRP, "some" form of grind has to exist in MMOs (or developers think so, at least) to keep people realistically addicted long enough to turn a profit.

We've all argued the pros (there's like 1) and cons of having a shitty droprate and having to endlessly farm, so that's just an extremely dead horse. That shit is going to be a given with any Eastern MMO - Korean games are no different.

I'm focusing on something that, while annoying, completely steps away from the normal punishments to the point of just making you scratch your head. I don't buy that SE decided to institute level downs simply because it was their newest FF and they wanted to try something new. They did it because this is the only FF that we pay for each month to play, and as such, wanted to make sure that we spent plenty of time with the game, and putting us on a treadmill with a carrot called 75 that has the ability to become close or move farther away was a good way to keep us running.

Much of that is irrelevant now that most people have at least 5 75 jobs, but in the beginning, when hitting 60 with one job was omgwtf, and survivability was nowhere like it is now, that treadmill was running strong.