Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Lucavi]

FFXI isn't really any different. I leveled my Dragoon up in a few weeks, and leveled into Homam, Ace's Helm, Cerb Mantle, Ares, Askar, etc. Then did the same thing with my Scholar, leveled it up in about a month and leveled into all my Black Mage gear. I'm not seeing how this is not relatively the same. I could go on and on, my Samurai leveling into my Monk's gear, etc etc.

You could say "Well your first job didn't level into gear because it was your first job", and I could say in Vanilla WoW you didn't get full epics in a few months, when raids had 40 people instead of 25, and you had to WORK for your epics, instead of Blizzard carebearing them out.

This. This so fucking much. Thank you, SB - you've put into words what I could not at the moment.

First jobs in any MMO take time, especially when you have no friends or support there to load you up with gifts.

My Drg took ages, at least 2 years. Not only was it the "loldrg" stigma, but it was my first job, and so things like getting full AF before moving on were paramount. I was also a perfectionist, and didn't advance past a level spread before having all of the best gear for it. This was before even Barone gear, so the "best" for a drg meant a SH, Pcharm, and dual snipers.

My second job was bard. It was 75 in about 4 months. My third job was Paladin, and had I had wanted to, I could have had it at 75 in a solid month, but I refused many statics (should have fucking staticed with EX that time...) because I stopped at every 10 cap and spent months playing ballista with friends. I had money for both jobs, and the best gear available that wasn't from cheating, botting HNM. I also leveled pld into full homam. It was a joke.

My Paladin (first job in WoW) took a ton of time, even though I didn't craft or have any professions. I had one friend that I knew from FFXI, but basically started completely over. Again, just like with FFXI, I spent a ton of time gearing up as completely as I could from each instance. I also stopped at each 9 bracket and played the shit out of the BGs, building a reputation. It took me about 5 months to take her to 62, and then I started dicking around with hunter. The hunter bug bit me hard, and I made him my main, and followed the exact same steps with his progress. He hit 70 about 2 months before WotLK.

I could now level any class (if I go back to WoW, which I will eventually) to 70 in a week if I want to. Tons of money, tons of gathering mats and crafts, and an innate knowledge of the fastest routes to success if I choose to take them all contribute.

Both games, and really, ALL MMOs should take you a goodly bit of time on your first character, but with all of these games, subsequent jobs/characters leveled is like subsequent playthroughs on a single player game on the same save file - much faster. You know what you are doing; you have better access to money, items, and help from friends, and you have a set goal in mind outside of just exploring the world and leveling with friends, which sometimes can slow you down.

This whole "WoW = easy mode in EVERY WAY!" vs. "FFXI = the most challenging, grueling test in existence!" ongoing mindset is silly. In both games, you get in what you put out, its just that with WoW, you're going to see tangible results more frequently. Are those results "better"? That is subjective, and depends on the player.

Isn't this turning into a FF vs. WoW thread, and isn't that something frowned upon by the higher garters?

Anyway, what I'm looking forward is everybody being equally clueless when the game is new.

I'm thinking that since all of this is speculation, the mods are allowing a bit of it. You likely won't (and shouldn't, really, as we'll be playing -that- game) when FFXIV launches, or at least has the beta up and running.

I wonder what kind of elitism will spring up during the first initial week of game launch. Will any groups of people try to magically claim superiority over other players, even though they are all brand new at the game? That's what I'll be looking out for.

Initial phases of a MMO are like case studies into human sociological nature.

[SilverBreeze]

Isn't this turning into a FF vs. WoW thread, and isn't that something frowned upon by the higher garters?

Anyway, what I'm looking forward is everybody being equally clueless when the game is new.

Not really, some people can talk constructively about two games without it becoming a flame war you know.

To me it boils down to in FFXI, gear can be stupidly hard to get, depending on luck, and some gear stays the best for WAY too long.

The opposite is true for WoW, the gear is easily obtainable, but only lasts 3-6 months.

I think most people want FF14 to be somewhere in between those two.

Also, subsequent characters made in any MMO are always easier to level/gear than your first. That's not something I complain about, and I like being able to level another job to make use of the gear that I've aquired with my hard earned time, rather than have it rot in the bank. I hope that you'll be able to reuse gear in 14 as much as we did in 11, but we'll see.

[Lucavi]

Middleground would be perfect. Also, continue with the ability to modify higher-quality gear. I would have loved to be able to custom-build our AF like with the micro-transaction armors SE "awarded".

The AF models looked so good for the time (I loved Wyrm.. ;- that it was a shame to see them rot in my AH because even the +1 versions paled in comparison to just about any end-game gear. There were only a select few that even saw the light of day. A few pld ones come to mind.

[Kaylia]

Not really, some people can talk constructively about two games without it becoming a flame war you know.

I always wonder why most people think an argument is a flame wars. WoW and FFXI are two of the biggest mmo, it would be ridiculous to not compare them if we want to try to figure out what "the best mmo" would be, or talk about stuff we like.

You could say "Well your first job didn't level into gear because it was your first job", and I could say in Vanilla WoW you didn't get full epics in a few months, when raids had 40 people instead of 25, and you had to WORK for your epics, instead of Blizzard carebearing them out.

I'm glad I missed that. I've done every atunement quests on lv80, and holy shit, they were a pain. I can only imagine how painful the whole process was back in the day when you actually had to group to complete it, not to mention 40 players raids.... I'm sure it was more satisfying for the few who actually went through it, but when I turn on a game, I want to play, not "work". The current WoW is doing a much better job at this (I think).


Both points you brought up were good, and I also agree a middle ground might be the best. From the sound of it, I think that's what we can expect for ff14, but who knows...

[Cool4Cats]

If there's a DRG job with wyvern, we should be able to sit/ride on it instead of a chocobo.

That would be made of win... Tough break for the Galka's wyverns though.

[Lucavi]

That would be made of win... Tough break for the Galka's wyverns though.

Just have the wyvern size scale with the size of the character. If they did that, it would allow for a lot more interaction between master and wyvern.

Wyverns perching on your shoulder, or sitting on your head, or you sitting on its head (that's a big-ass wyvern...)!

[McGoonagle]

Just have the wyvern size scale with the size of the character. If they did that, it would allow for a lot more interaction between master and wyvern.

Wyverns perching on your shoulder, or sitting on your head, or you sitting on its head (that's a big-ass wyvern...)!

I would have liked the wyvern to show some changes as DRG progressed and parameters increased. Things like it getting a bit bigger, the scales becoming scalier, maybe even showing some optical effects. Being able to reward and heal it like the beastmaster with a wyvern-specific food (Dragoon biscuits anyone?) when there is no whm around would be nice.

[Lucavi]

Its too late now. Lets hope for the next game.

It was fun being able to put leashes and throw balls and sticks to my collection of cats in WoW. I wanted a pet ronfarue rabbit in FFXI!

[Rokku]

I think most people want FF14 to be somewhere in between those two.

Pretty much this. It's a hard middle ground to obtain though, but given some of the stuff that SE's mentioned that they're toying around with in terms of gear and making old stuff still be useful in the long run, they might be working on a winning formula.

[Vacht]

Well, most gears have a life span of 3 month (6 in some case), and you won't get all of them instantly after an update. Unless you're talking about change they made to the game before, you can't really lose "1 years worth of farming". It's hard to lose more than "3 months worth of farming" in the current system.


You can't approach WoW with the mindset that your gears will last forever. Your objective should be achievement, world first, outdpsing people..etc

wow sounds lame @_o

[Midnightjade]

Darksteel codpiece. FFXIV wouldn't be the same without it.

[Kaylia]

wow sounds lame @_o

Which part? The one where you can play the game without stressing yourself over shitty drop rate? The one where you can move on and go farm something new? Upgrading your gears is always satisfying. It's not like it got nerfed suddently, you're replacing it with something more powerful (and hopefully good looking).


What happen in FFXI is random nerfs or changes that make no sense. Sure, everything is sidegrade, but when they outdate your ridill for an extremely common g.axe, or allow people to make something better than morrigan body in a gambling system...it can frustrating. There is so many wtf on gears when you look at the effort spent versus the result.


[edit]
About itemization in WoW...I really wish SE would talk about their game like WoW's employee
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...eNo=2&sid=1#25


WoW: We know some people dislike it, but we can't do it because it would create x,y,z issue
SE: It's designed as intented, and you WILL like it.

[LD]

I think it's important to remember that we don't necessarily know the player caps for parties/alliances or how many people will be needed for high-end content. By putting some emphasis on solo play, SE is trying to present FFXIV as more casual than FFXI. With this in mind, it's possible for them to extend this to high end content as well. To accomplish this, let's say they lower the average headcount for most truly difficult events. LSs or Guilds or Clans or w/e will require fewer people to function. With a more intimate environment, schedules will be easier to plan. With more consistent schedules and less competition, missing one event could be less of a big deal; people could feel less pressure to acquire gear or be present for events. This doesn't entirely trivialize things like drop rates or pop timers, but I feel it's an x-factor that hasn't been explored.

Admittedly, this is a bit of wishful thinking, but I feel the conversation is limited by the idea that we'll be repeating content with a dozen or so people. Of course, if you don't need many people for a single event, you have to make sure there's always something else for everyone to do. The situation gets even worse with world pops. Still, it's worth bringing up.

[Hyan]

WoW: We know some people dislike it, but we can't do it because it would create x,y,z issue
SE: It's designed as intented, and you WILL like it.

If "it" is not good, you don't have to play. If people play the game, SE can and will do whatever they want. If no one plays, that's because no one likes what SE is doing. It's as simple as that. SE doesn't force you to play through content you think "sucks". SE doesn't force you to play if you can't agree with the changes made. SE doesn't force you to like what they're doing.

If people keep playing, that means overall people like what SE has designed. There's no reason to explain anything. If overall people dislike what SE has designed, they will have to change their style or they'll get less profit.

It's completely irrelevant if SE does it the WoW "Dear customers, we love you and appreciate your feedback =)" way or the normal "Here's new content, see you in few months" way. Nothing changes whatsoever, the problems are still there and words won't make them go away. The only change is that some players can feel that they're appreciated and loved. Who the hell cares about that? I just want a good game. SE doesn't have to kiss addicts' asses that want something more than just a game to play.

[Kawfee]

stuff about high-end content group size requirements

I hope you're right. It would be really nice to see 10-12 man options for end-game content, with maybe 18-24 being the largest size cap.
I mean, I suppose in FFXI some things its nice to be able to zerg with 50+ people rotating in and out of alliance, outside healers, etc., but meh, I'd prefer "needing" smaller numbers of people.

Just to do an event in FFXI you waste like an hour getting organized half the time.

[Lucavi]

If "it" is not good, you don't have to play. If people play the game, SE can and will do whatever they want. If no one plays, that's because no one likes what SE is doing. It's as simple as that. SE doesn't force you to play through content you think "sucks". SE doesn't force you to play if you can't agree with the changes made. SE doesn't force you to like what they're doing.

If people keep playing, that means overall people like what SE has designed. There's no reason to explain anything. If overall people dislike what SE has designed, they will have to change their style or they'll get less profit.

It's completely irrelevant if SE does it the WoW "Dear customers, we love you and appreciate your feedback =)" way or the normal "Here's new content, see you in few months" way. Nothing changes whatsoever, the problems are still there and words won't make them go away. The only change is that some players can feel that they're appreciated and loved. Who the hell cares about that? I just want a good game. SE doesn't have to kiss addicts' asses that want something more than just a game to play.

That logic would apply if there were no reward at the end of doing whatever they've designed.

Look at ballista. Only the people that enjoyed it, played it. There was no reward for excelling in ballista, other than the ability to buy potions and whatnot before each match. That is a perfect example of your theory.

Sky, Sea, Dynamis, HNM, Salvage, Assault, Nyuzul, and all other reward-based events are not accurate examples. Some people did those because they like them, which is fine, and leads to what you are saying. What, however, about those people that did not like the events, yet did them anyway because they felt that they needed the items either to compete in other areas of the game, or simply because "everyone else has them and expects me to have them."

When you add an incentive on the back of an event, all of a sudden you negate that "well if you don't like it, leave it!" theory. You may not have a complete choice to ignore the event, especially if the reward can be seen as something that may hinder you in the future if you don't possess it.

It is in those times that SE should listen to user feedback, and they have on some fronts. By your logic, SE certain CoP fights for no reason, as if they were too hard and people didn't like them, they should have just skipped CoP altogether.

That is foolish, though. No company wants to see 85% of the player-base never seeing the content they've worked so hard to produce. SE gains absolutely nothing from all-but blocking their players from seeing their hard work. They realized this, and so for that series of events (complete with nice rewards at the end: sea access, CoP rings, gorgets, gear, and AV), they lowered the difficulty to allow more people to see and participate in those events.

Your logic holds little water, I'm sorry. SE has disproven you, they simply aren't disproving you on every occasion. They can, and will - on some occasions - modify an event that people are complaining about in order to better allow people to enjoy it. They are extremely stubborn about it, and rarely utilize that ability.

[pingpong]

WoW: We know some people dislike it, but we can't do it because it would create x,y,z issue
SE: It's designed as intented, and you WILL like it.

So they both said the same thing. Got it.

[Cureslime]

If "it" is not good, you don't have to play. If people play the game, SE can and will do whatever they want. If no one plays, that's because no one likes what SE is doing. It's as simple as that. SE doesn't force you to play through content you think "sucks". SE doesn't force you to play if you can't agree with the changes made. SE doesn't force you to like what they're doing.

If people keep playing, that means overall people like what SE has designed. There's no reason to explain anything. If overall people dislike what SE has designed, they will have to change their style or they'll get less profit.

It's completely irrelevant if SE does it the WoW "Dear customers, we love you and appreciate your feedback =)" way or the normal "Here's new content, see you in few months" way. Nothing changes whatsoever, the problems are still there and words won't make them go away. The only change is that some players can feel that they're appreciated and loved. Who the hell cares about that? I just want a good game. SE doesn't have to kiss addicts' asses that want something more than just a game to play.

The point is that Blizzard actually listens to player feedback and changes things instead of stonewalling and telling you to go eat a dick like S-E does. They don't always get it right but at least they make an effort. Changing things = action and not just words.

FFXI was a good game and that is why we all expect FFXIV to be a good game. A good game with a good license will always make monies. FFXI could've been a great game had S-E done a better job of supporting it in its early years. I don't know why you're lobbying for S-E to reject all feedback and make a terrible game.

[Vacht]

Agh.. since when does WoW have good ideas? WoW is so late in the game and has stolen so many elements from other games.

We love to whine until we get our way, but SE wont let that happen i hope. Its the difficulty that separates, and defines success from failure.

Unfortunately I do agree, they are effing stingy with the rewards you get from things. After completing a few of the expansions i would have thought id get more than just a couple rings. Granted they were good, but we never really got any gear that made us like "wtfretarded" good. Even when i was in my skadi, X's knife/blau blah blah blah everything the best I could still occasionally die to an even match. I guess that is an even match? I remember being able to solo those enkidu's in sky in full evasion gear unless i get paralyzed, or was it getting bound? I forget.

[Kaluuki]

The reason why I don't like WoW:

It becomes a second job. Or, for the "hardcore" raid guilds, it IS their job. And they act like they're the coolest shits in the world.

Since when are games about obsessing to be the best? I'll I'm asking of SE is a legitimately fun game (yes, FUN. A word we haven't heard in a while) that doesn't suck the life out of everything I'm doing.