Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Lucavi]

An actual set of bars in each town with different feels (upscale, seedy, and welcoming), with actually chair-sitting, drinking and eating emotes, and good white noise would take the game far in terms of immersion. The idea of only being able to take on certain jobs from certain establishments (more seedy jobs from the crusty bars and such) sounds fun.

I'm worried about overcrowdedness, though. Take, for example, Jueno's traffic in the peak of FFXI's life. Though you saw so much traffic because of a combination of the auction house and there just being nowhere else to go in-town, unless you just wanted to aimlessly stand around in a shop, if they are aiming to funnel in most quests into the bar scene, it could be another instance of "new quest syndrome", where everyone rushes to do the same quest at the same time and needs to talk to a single NPC.

Remember the rush to Naja each time a new set of missions came out? Yeah, lets try to avoid that.

[LD]

Purely cosmetic elements are what kept the bars in FFXI empty in the first place. Unless eating something in a bar provides something eating outside doesn't or the bar offers something specific, there should be no reason (besides possibly personal preference) for you to be there over another establishment.

The job-specific bar is an even more egregious idea, since it suggests that your alignment is connected to your job. That conflicts with SE's stated concept that characters will be more a collection of abilities and equipment options rather than a linear progression. It may start as a 'job', but ultimately you'll branch out beyond a simple identification. Also, is a rogue always chaos aligned? I think it's just as likely to see an assassin for the knights templar as it is to see an evil paladin ('course, I'm a WH40k fan. :X )

Crowds could be a problem. If entering a bar really turns out to be a core element of adventure planning, they could easily be annoying, flow-breaking lag-fests. They could do a two-drink minimum kinda thing where you get kicked out if you're not doing anything. That said, I think what made FFXI's major hubs so rough is exactly what they're (supposedly) fixing: party-centric activities. People were stuck in Jeuno & Whitegate all day because that's where the major marketplace and important shouts were. You couldn't buy shit of any real value anywhere except at Jeuno AH branches. Granted, they were spread over 8 zones and 5 of them were easily accessible even from home nations, but we all know it boiled down to 1 because of the shout thing. There is nothing you can do in 11 without other people, so any special activities coordinated between strangers had to be done in shout.

WoW side-steps this somewhat by having chat fields shared between the cities. Dalaran gets crowded, but I've never seen it as bad as Jeuno/Whitegate. The only reason you're there at all is because it makes transportation easiest (proximity to high content and ports to home cities), but even that's moot considering random dungeons and gathering stones. Shit, even that'll be tossed in the air when Cata comes out a billion fucking years from now. >:O

I guess what I'm saying is two things have to be done to keep player flow steady in town: Allow people of every level to always run out of the city gates and do something useful. Create a system where grouping with strangers can be done conveniently and invitations can be given en masse without being limited or obnoxious. Maybe a bulletin board system like they had in FFXII? A display of your suggested Guildleve and maybe a short description of every invitation over the last 30 minutes that could be clicked and read on a bar's wall. People wouldn't shout like 'tards and could join groups at their leisure.

[Kawfee]

Bulletin board idea ^ sounds like a great design feature to me.

[Cureslime]

An actual set of bars in each town with different feels (upscale, seedy, and welcoming), with actually chair-sitting, drinking and eating emotes, and good white noise would take the game far in terms of immersion.

In terms of roleplaying LOTRO had the Prancing Pony and other lore-related establishments that were meant to serve that purpose. In the game itself people only entered them to grab quests and rearrange traits. Just having them exist and be cool isn't enough to be worthwhile.

There are a lot of things they can do with a "bar" to make it worthwhile for people to enter it. Near-seamless transitions to instanced content have been around forever now and S-E could easily implement something to keep the crowds manageable on your screen in said bar. I would like to see user-adjustable settings that take you to an instance of said bar that you'd want to be in. Could serve a dual purpose as guildleve hub and guild hall. It wouldn't affect immersion for one small part of a city to be instanced.

Really though it would take a lot of work so S-E won't bother. We're going to end up with an ugly room full of 500 people huddled around a bulletin board. It's nice to dream though.

[arus2001]

RPers and min/maxers have never really mixed in MMOs, from my experience. One may individually be both, but one meeting the other usually nets in chaos, and I think that's where this whole "bar" line of conversation would eventually proceed without coded systems to adequately distract and satisfy both parties. Even then, I'm sure someone pretending to be the Ash of Triple Triad and even having the skill to back it would be scorned by the numbers crowd just for playing the role.

Personally, I'd also want content to favor the numbers crowd. RPers can at least imagine things around them... environmental changes, NPC reactions, or whatever, but none of that means shit if you want to test to your gear or get some loot from a mob. In other words, it's intangible vs. tangible rewards for time.

[LD]

Even if a bar were filled entirely with one group or another, you wouldn't want to be bogged down in other people's conversations. With a good enough social chat system, differing play styles should be nearly irrelevant.

[Hyan]

The solution can be in game, but SquareEnix need to know the issue before addressing it. Do you think they should let a 500 pages thread on AV, goblin drink, or almighty apkallu alone?

SquareEnix isnt entirely oblivious, but their method to gather information are lacking, and it's easy to see. They don't have a good grasp of the the issue in this game, and the solution are often weak. A better relation between the development team and their playerbase would undoubtedly help. Can it be done in game only? I doubt so.

If you think so, so be it. In any case, there is no need for them to do anything but take more of our feedback into consideration when creating content.

Of course not, but I don't think any companies gives players what they want, it's just that some can accurately pinpoint what their playerbase should get and they do it properly. I gave you an example earlier where Blizzard employee tell people why they couldn't get what they wanted, and the argument was logically sound.

SquareEnix logic make absolutely no sense, their answers are evasive at best, and they fail at convincing us that we have to accept this. Even worse, they often try to give player "what they want", except they picked some retarded request.

"We would like to have monster pet" ---> Pankration

Did they really listen? The request in the first place was retarded and couldn't work, so why did they made some half assed content to give people what they want? Why bother with a system like pankration if your game can't support it? I enjoyed pankration for what it was, but was it a good time investment? I doubt so.

I've never had a problem understanding SE's logic. They do have their view on what should be doable by players and what is "too much", and they operate on those standards. It makes sense to me at least, but it's too bad if it doesn't for you.

Players want some kind of PvP content, and SE takes a creative approach at it. It can fail or it can win, but in either case I appreciate that they try, instead of just recycling the old and giving it a new skin and name (which is ultimately the easier and more "reliable" way). Of course its a matter of opinion which way is better to make content, but I wouldn't say one is better than the other.

I will take WoW's Santa Claus GM over FFXI's one.

GM not having the power to do anything isn't a game ruining experience, but it definitively make me want to invest my money somewher where people actually solve my issue.

You can downplay every single factor one by one if you want, but in the end, when you compare both package and one has a much better overall quality, the choice is obvious.

It wasn't an obvious choice for me, at least. I found that while WoW was overall more balanced and a game of better quality, it didn't satisfy me as well as XI did, even though XI was an unpolished diamond at best. When the games are different from the core, it's not that obvious for everyone.

Like I said, the "right" and "wrong" stacks. You don't leave/join a mmo for a single thing, but when there is too many annoyances, I'm just going to quit, and never look back. People didn't leave because they couldnt get their ridill, people didn't leave because pankration wasnt what thye wanted, people didn't leave because of drama, or fail service, but if you combine everything, it's eventually enough to make one person fed up with the game.

Alright, so do you want SE to solve the in-game problems before setting your sights on out of the game-fluff like communication? They have resources available to them, and if those resources are going to more open public relations in exchange for less glitches fixed and worse quality content created, what do you think is the most important thing here? "We love you, customers~" posts on the forums or actual things done to the game?

When most of the stuff that is wrong with the game itself is taken care of, then they can start thinking of pleasing the addicts that demand attention out of the game.

the game can do with more of a "give people what they want atitude" than was in FFXI. Where SE failed with FFXI was the assumption that there should not be more than X number of an item allowed to be created in Y time. Yes, that is a fundimental equation that developers must consider. But, this was taken to an extreme

When the whole game, from the ground-up, is based on the assumption that nothing can be achieved easily and fast, do you think it is that easy to change the game from the core without breaking a great bunch of things? If they wanted a short-sighted solution that would please the players, they could have done that, but in the end such a drastic change would have most likely ruined the game, if not in the normal sense, in a way that lots of people would end up quitting because there's nothing to gain anymore.

Of course players don't take this perspective into consideration, because only self gain is what matters, but it's something that the devs have to think of.

[fussel]

Bulletin board idea ^ sounds like a great design feature to me.

Definitely ingame forums that are not accessible from outside the game. Also ingame chat like irc, to make a channel you need linkshell, to join a channel, you need a linkpearl. Multi-LS chat please.

And something like craigslist. MogNot will not deliver items, though, but you can leave them with the Moogle and the receiver can pick it up.

[Kawfee]

And something like craigslist.

Casual encounters section, specifically, please.

[arus2001]

Alright, so do you want SE to solve the in-game problems before setting your sights on out of the game-fluff like communication?

Is it really that hard to grasp that out-of-game communication is far more likely to evoke changes to the game than people randomly bitching in their shells, pages, or even fan forums? All we have with XI is a POL address that we have no clue how often doesn't get read or just automatically filters crap if a particular word is used and SE wants none of it. Or if it does get read, the damn change comes four years after it would've been more greatly appreciated.

Core mechanics or spaghetti code isn't an excuse for not making good things happen. We pay monthly fees so the game can not only be sustained but also evolve. I don't really care if it comes from some rep farming ideas, maybe a bi-weekly panel where they answer 10 random questions, or shit out a survey every month regarding events or other points of interest. They can talk to us. They should talk to us. End of story.

[Hyan]

Is it really that hard to grasp that out-of-game communication is far more likely to evoke changes to the game than people randomly bitching in their shells, pages, or even fan forums? All we have with XI is a POL address that we have no clue how often doesn't get read or just automatically filters crap if a particular word is used and SE wants none of it. Or if it does get read, the damn change comes four years after it would've been more greatly appreciated.

As long as it gets read and changes happen, what does it matter if we have a clue about it or not?

They can talk to us. That doesn't mean that they should talk to us. Answering 10 random questions won't make any difference whatsoever. The game won't evolve any more if they answer or choose not to.

And core mechanics and spaghetti code are pretty damn good reasons for us not getting "good stuff". The biggest reason above all is money, of course, but the aforementioned things contribute to the possible solution. The more they have to fiddle around things to solve issues, the more resources it takes. If they can't raise the inventory cap above 80, which would be the easiest solution, they'll have to figure out another way- which is more time and resource consuming.

Now the solution would be to aim those resources to a 10 question Q&A session instead of trying to fix said problems with the limited funds. "Yeah, we can't give you more inventory space because the cap is unfortunately 80 due to PS2 limitations. We could figure out a solution around this issue, but we chose to waste resources on setting up this Q&A panel instead. At least you got what you wanted, dear customers."

Then the always so right customers will be like "oh that's cool, we understand why you can't raise the inventory cap now. This panel was a nice read."

Or rather "damn SE and their excuses! Why do they always lie to us. They're just so lazy! This panel didn't do anything to solve the issues!"

[tsaroth816]

Screw taverns. Who the hell wants to sit around afk all day in a new game? I want to be out there exploring as much as possible. Open Mog House failed for a reason, no one cares. FFXI was all about sitting in town waiting for the next event? Well not FFXIV (I hope).

If you are really desperate for online fake avatar attention in a game that isn't a glorified chat room, maybe you should hit up your local real life bar.


Edit: I think Hyan seems to be missing the point of "Communication" he thinks that if SE "says" stuff, so what? But we think if SE has an open line, they will actually use it for the sole purpose of making changes, why not? New system for a new game please, don't want FFXI-2.

[Seiji Okita]

While I dont think anyone really wants to sit around afk all day, towns being a hub for adventurers to gather, trade, and what not is really unavoidable. Adding some form of flavor to those gathering locations, rather then standing around some holes in the wall, isnt a bad thing in my opinion.

About SE giving into the fanbases demands, i personly never truly felt i sufferd from lack of dev interaction. So while i see how people could feel the way they do, part of me just feels they are exacerbated claims

[arus2001]

I also think he's overestimating the cost of communicating. Then again, I'm of the mindset money generated by XIV should go to XIV before getting funneled off to other stupid little projects like another VII spin-off. Even if it means just 100k more users in the long run, that's a potential $1,500,000 extra a year. Fuck off if you don't think that'll cover the overhead exponentially.

The alternative is them repeating the same shit as XI, those of us who know better will call 'em out on it, and those already teetering on trust will finally give 'em the bird, leaving everyone else with less money and incentive to play because of shallow updates with either SE getting their act together to try save a sinking ship or we get the current state of XI years sooner.

This isn't 2003. Not only has the industry evolved, but the customer base has, too. They might be able to fool a person who's never played an MMO before, but there are at least 10 million people out spread amongst various games who have seen things they like and things they don't like. Probably the only people who would argue against communication were the ones riding the high of an overpowered job/class or exploiting something that finally got fixed. These people don't care if SE is making 999999% profit instead of 1000000%. The current global economy isn't exactly lending itself to corporate greed, either. Whether they like it or not, we're their stockholders.

[Hyan]

Edit: I think Hyan seems to be missing the point of "Communication" he thinks that if SE "says" stuff, so what? But we think if SE has an open line, they will actually use it for the sole purpose of making changes, why not? New system for a new game please, don't want FFXI-2.

Communication is important. If SE takes feedback and uses it for making changes, that is good for everyone. However, if SE responds to that feedback with fluff that makes no difference, that is no good for anyone that wants a better game. If SE keeps doing what they've done in the past, responds to the feedback with actual changes to the game, we will get the most out of them. The rest is unimportant. Do we need to know why something can't be done? Do we need to know how long it's going to take? That won't make a difference, only make the wait for the much needed fix longer. It won't fix the problems, and it won't make the solution come any sooner.

I also think he's overestimating the cost of communicating. Then again, I'm of the mindset money generated by XIV should go to XIV before getting funneled off to other stupid little projects like another VII spin-off. Even if it means just 100k more users in the long run, that's a potential $1,500,000 extra a year. Fuck off if you don't think that'll cover the overhead exponentially.

It doesn't really matter how much it will cost. It is really quite a cheap way to keep addicts happy, but makes the least difference. It is money going to waste, when it could go to making actual changes to the game itself. That is the sole reason why I'm against it.

Your mindset is childish. Why should SE use the profit generated from XI go to the game, when it would generate minimal profit for the extra cost? No company is out there for the charity, and they don't like giving out money just to make us all happy. What world are you living in? If the project has a much better chance of generating profit, it is not stupid. You can't blame the company for doing what every company is doing out there. Oh wait, but SE is obviously the only company that does this. That's what makes sense, right?

The game does not raise in popularity just by throwing more money at it. Especially the older the game gets, the harder it is to gain new subscribers. At some point, it is much more efficient to keep the old users playing than trying to gain new users.

The alternative is them repeating the same shit as XI, those of us who know better will call 'em out on it, and those already teetering on trust will finally give 'em the bird, leaving everyone else with less money and incentive to play because of shallow updates with either SE getting their act together to try save a sinking ship or we get the current state of XI years sooner.

Wrong. The alternative is SE listening to the feedback from the start, and responding to it. SE doesn't have to change their isolationist policy to do that.

The updates did what they tried to accomplish. It might have been shallow for you, but in reality SE has a best effort/profit ratio there is aside from WoW, which I'm sure is also not using all of the profit generated from 12 million subscribers to make their game better. That's how the world works, and it's silly to blame SE for the unfairness.

This isn't 2003. Not only has the industry evolved, but the customer base has, too. They might be able to fool a person who's never played an MMO before, but there are at least 10 million people out spread amongst various games who have seen things they like and things they don't like. Probably the only people who would argue against communication were the ones riding the high of an overpowered job/class or exploiting something that finally got fixed. These people don't care if SE is making 999999% profit instead of 1000000%. The current global economy isn't exactly lending itself to corporate greed, either. Whether they like it or not, we're their stockholders.

Yeah, the masses are always right. SE doesn't care if they don't care. They'll make just enough content to get that 1000000% profit, regardless. Just like every other company out there.

In reality, I don't care if SE is greedy, as long as the game is entertaining. In reality, what happens out of the game is meaningless as well, as long as the game itself is good.

[arus2001]

If your argument is things done outside the game are pointless, then I guess SE shouldn't advertise, either. Because talking of future plans, what can, and can't be done is a continual advertising to those paying the monthly fee. It leads to discourse and hype. It can win back people who stepped away because an issue they were miffed with was finally addressed.

It's in their best interest to spend more to gain more because people are exceptionally fickle within the first few months of an MMO's launch. If the level of communication doesn't concern you, great, but don't sit here talking like you've done extensive PR studies on the benefits of isolationist policy when people only need to look across the internet to see a another multi-lingual PC only game with over 20 times the subscribers. And the popularity isn't solely because people blindly think shit's handed out. Customer care has many forms, and this is just one of them.

[Hyan]

Of course they'll spend more during the first few months/years of XIV's launch, just like they did with XI. But you can't sit here talking what's in their best interest and what's not when you don't know any better.

If the game is good, people will play it. MMO's are not like single player games that get forgotten few months after their release and have a much limited lifespan. MMO's can grow even years after their release, you don't need Blizzard-level advertising to have a big playerbase. Just for being a Final Fantasy game is enough for many.

If problems were finally addressed in the game, that will win people back for sure. But SE talking shit that changes nothing will not win people back.

Why are you so adamant on having the fluff over actual game changes? What do you care about the size of the playerbase? Do you think that SE will somehow spend more money at the game if there are more players? They'll do what is necessary to keep those players playing, and if fluff is what accomplishes it, then that's what they'll do. Why change the game when marketing produces much better results for minimum gain?

If you really want the fluff and huge playerbase like in WoW, then so be it. I guess wanting a good game is a thing of the past.

[arus2001]

Your fault lies in the fact you think people are asking for fluff with the communication. It can be productive, and not just in the, "Surprise, patch notes!" sense.

[Hyan]

I'd gladly change my views, but you're just not convincing me here. "I'm right. End of story." just doesn't cut it.

Does the advertising change the game for the better? It generates more profit for the company for sure, but is that really something the users want in exchange for worse gaming experience? The companies are already lazy enough with all the DLC and fluff content, why would anyone want to make the situation worse is something I can't comprehend.

[Kaylia]

It wasn't an obvious choice for me, at least. I found that while WoW was overall more balanced and a game of better quality, it didn't satisfy me as well as XI did, even though XI was an unpolished diamond at best. When the games are different from the core, it's not that obvious for everyone.

That's what heroine user say when they go back to lesser drugs.

If you're addicting to masochism, good for you, but I'm not sure that's what a game should be like.

Alright, so do you want SE to solve the in-game problems before setting your sights on out of the game-fluff like communication? They have resources available to them, and if those resources are going to more open public relations in exchange for less glitches fixed and worse quality content created, what do you think is the most important thing here? "We love you, customers~" posts on the forums or actual things done to the game?

Stop assuming it means less content or fix, it's completely retarded. More people = more money, and more money mean they will be able to keep the same overall quality.

I don't even understand where the idea that they are working on a fixed amount of money/people come from. What's your next argument? They shouldnt spend any money on marketing since marketting won't do anything good?


Investing *more* in every aspects will yield better result, especially when the "communication with the playerbase barely cost you anything.