Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[arus2001]

I'm still puzzled on how spending less on the game equates to a better gaming experience for the gamer. If you're just running on WoW-hate, then admit it and be done. The benefits of having more players to play with should be obvious, as it means more parties, more help for quest/missions, more people to want crafted goods or NM drops. Of course, the trick is things beings balanced so people will want to help or things aren't needlessly bottlenecked so only the no-lifers could hope to afford something. Ironically, correspondence on such issues can lead to a quicker fix. Frankly, I doubt the R/E changes on a lot of NMs in XI came about to benefit the players so much as it was an FU to RMT.

[Hyan]

I'm still puzzled on how spending less on the game equates to a better gaming experience for the gamer. If you're just running on WoW-hate, then admit it and be done. The benefits of having more players to play with should be obvious, as it means more parties, more help for quest/missions, more people to want crafted goods or NM drops. Of course, the trick is things beings balanced so people will want to help or things aren't needlessly bottlenecked so only the no-lifers could hope to afford something. Ironically, correspondence on such issues can lead to a quicker fix. Frankly, I doubt the R/E changes on a lot of NMs in XI came about to benefit the players so much as it was an FU to RMT.

No, it means more servers and more instability. If there are enough players to fill 30 servers, it doesn't matter if there are enough players to fill 300. No more parties than normally, no more help for quests, no more people wanting crafted goods. They'll be on other servers. One server can only hold so many, and I don't think it's that hard to cap out on one server if the game is at least semi-competent.

Where you got that "spending less" idea, I've no idea though. If you have extra funds, use them on the game, not something irrelevant. You'll spend just as much either way, only this time the funds are going to something actually productive. That's if you think spending them on the game is productive though. I'm not really sure if you think like that anymore. In which case I'm pretty puzzled myself.

Stop assuming it means less content or fix, it's completely retarded. More people = more money, and more money mean they will be able to keep the same overall quality.

I don't even understand where the idea that they are working on a fixed amount of money/people come from. What's your next argument? They shouldnt spend any money on marketing since marketting won't do anything good?

More money means they'll get more profit. It doesn't mean XIV is going to get any of that profit.

They're not working on a fixed amount of money or people, but when they get the extra funds they need to decide where it goes to. To customer relations that does nothing for the game, or changing the game itself?

Marketing won't certainly do the game anything. More people will know and play it for sure, but what does it do for you?

Investing *more* in every aspects will yield better result, especially when the "communication with the playerbase barely cost you anything.

Wrong. There are aspects that yield better results than others. It is better to invest on those aspects than those that don't yield as much results.

If we want a good game, invest on fixing bugs and creating content. If we want a cash cow for barely no cost, then invest on communicating, and customer relations.

For a player the choice should be obvious, but you guys are something else.

Of course it's easy to link any criticism to "WoW hating". Of course I hate everything that just wasn't for my tastes.

[tsaroth816]

No, it means more servers and more instability. If there are enough players to fill 30 servers, it doesn't matter if there are enough players to fill 300. No more parties than normally, no more help for quests, no more people wanting crafted goods. They'll be on other servers. One server can only hold so many, and I don't think it's that hard to cap out on one server if the game is at least semi-competent.

Where you got that "spending less" idea, I've no idea though. If you have extra funds, use them on the game, not something irrelevant. You'll spend just as much either way, only this time the funds are going to something actually productive. That's if you think spending them on the game is productive though. I'm not really sure if you think like that anymore. In which case I'm pretty puzzled myself.



More money means they'll get more profit. It doesn't mean XIV is going to get any of that profit.

They're not working on a fixed amount of money or people, but when they get the extra funds they need to decide where it goes to. To customer relations that does nothing for the game, or changing the game itself?

Marketing won't certainly do the game anything. More people will know and play it for sure, but what does it do for you?



Wrong. There are aspects that yield better results than others. It is better to invest on those aspects than those that don't yield as much results.

If we want a good game, invest on fixing bugs and creating content. If we want a cash cow for barely no cost, then invest on communicating, and customer relations.

For a player the choice should be obvious, but you guys are something else.

Of course it's easy to link any criticism to "WoW hating". Of course I hate everything that just wasn't for my tastes.

omfg did you just type all that nonsense? Please reread it before everyone tears you a new one

[Hyan]

omfg did you just type all that nonsense? Please reread it before everyone tears you a new one

Great, constructive post. We need more guys like you around here!

[Kaylia]

Oh boy...

There are aspects that yield better results than others. It is better to invest on those aspects than those that don't yield as much results.

Earlier, you were saying they could communicate informations inside the game. Fine, but are you conscious it cost a lot more than an official forum with developper posting? Isn't a case of "bad investment"? Do you know it's not nearly as efficient either.

If we want a good game, invest on fixing bugs and creating content. If we want a cash cow for barely no cost, then invest on communicating, and customer relations.

Blizzard gives us more content, and communicate better. You can have both. One doesnt prevent the other, so get that out of your fucking skull.


I still don't understand where your idea that one come at the expense of the other come from....that's not how it works.

For a player the choice should be obvious, but you guys are something else.

Because content you don't give shit about is better?

[Kaylia]

Anyway, why do you think having "better communication" would change nothing? We aren't talking about suggestion boxes linked to a trash can, we are talking about developper who seriously try to understand the players, because they want to give them a better game.

Gathering information is a crucial part of the development, and it can't/shouldn't be done with number you pulled out of your database.

[Hyan]

Earlier, you were saying they could communicate informations inside the game. Fine, but are you conscious it cost a lot more than an official forum with developper posting? Isn't a case of "bad investment"? Do you know it's not nearly as efficient either.

It depends. Keeping the forum server up is not free. Even BG had to collect 3k cash to keep their server up, and it'd be likely that SE would at least need a similar if not more expensive server to handle the traffic. Is this cheaper than implementing a random NPC to the game (or using an existing one) and creating few lines of script? Or perhaps telling the details in an update note or something.

I see your point and it is valid, but SE doesn't have to change their approach to provide you with information outside the game to do that. It isn't something that can only be done outside the game, and if it is, updates notes are enough to provide us with enough knowledge when necessary.

Blizzard gives us more content, and communicate better. You can have both. One doesnt prevent the other, so get that out of your fucking skull.


I still don't understand where your idea that one come at the expense of the other come from....that's not how it works.

Blizzard would give us even more content if they didn't communicate. Is WoW glitch free? Is there always enough content to last for the next update? If these things aren't in check, then spending funds on communication is a waste. There could be more.

Because content you don't give shit about is better?

No, content you give a shit about is better. And if SE makes a good game, that's the kind of content we'll be getting. And if SE makes a bad game, better communications won't save it.

Anyway, why do you think having "better communication" would change nothing? We aren't talking about suggestion boxes linked to a trash can, we are talking about developper who seriously try to understand the players, because they want to give them a better game.

Gathering information is a crucial part of the development, and it can't/shouldn't be done with number you pulled out of your database.

Listening to feedback and implementing changes and content based on that = good changes. That's the kind of "better communication" that would be good to see in XIV as opposed to XI.

But what I don't understand is why you link that kind of communication to devs posting on the official forums about fluff. You don't need that kind of thing to achieve the above. As long as shit happens through updates, we're good.

[Boom]

I approve of the in-game communications, say a Rumormonger McMoogle, if they word the updates in a way that doesn't break the fourth wall.

And have a list of options to choose from like those campaign strategies for feedback.

Bonus points for implementing the rumor system from persona2. Entire server votes on some permanent world-changing event once every few months.

[arus2001]

But what I don't understand is why you link that kind of communication to devs posting on the official forums about fluff. You don't need that kind of thing to achieve the above. As long as shit happens through updates, we're good.

Devs don't think of everything. And while I didn't quote the particular section, one can't guarantee a bug free release. Recent enfeeble mess? Initial two-hander update? What was SE's excuse? They certainly weren't inundating us with fluff, as you put it.

Our point is EVEN MORE shit can happen through updates when you do a better job in drawing in a larger crowd, as with a larger user base you can hire more coders, more QA folk, buy more hardware, better fight RMT, and so on. None of us are saying the majority always know better, but you can't assume the majority's always wrong, either. There is a difference between doing the bare minimum to put out a game and the bare minimum to put out a game that grows into a giant cash cow.

[Hyan]

Devs don't think of everything. And while I didn't quote the particular section, one can't guarantee a bug free release. Recent enfeeble mess? Initial two-hander update? What was SE's excuse? They certainly weren't inundating us with fluff, as you put it.

Our point is EVEN MORE shit can happen through updates when you do a better job in drawing in a larger crowd, as with a larger user base you can hire more coders, more QA folk, buy more hardware, better fight RMT, and so on. None of us are saying the majority always know better, but you can't assume the majority's always wrong, either. There is a difference between doing the bare minimum to put out a game and the bare minimum to put out a game that grows into a giant cash cow.

Your assumption doesn't work, because there's no reason to hire more coders, more QA folk, and so on. They'll need more servers, but that's about it.

They'll still do just enough to keep the players subscribed, and the rest is for profit. More players doesn't mean more content for us. It means more profit for the company. I don't really care for that.

Why would they do more anyway? I'm sure SE even now generates enough profit from XI to hire more coders, more QA folk, more everything for both of their MMO's, and the same goes for Blizzard- but they don't have to, and it wouldn't generate profit to do so, so they don't.

Or maybe there comes a point where companies have generated enough profit and will stop trying to get even more of it any way possible. Wars will end, poverty will be a thing of the past and everyone will have food to eat. Or maybe not, but of course SE is the only company that should change their ways. They're the evil ones. Skynet of the real world.

[Cureslime]

For old games that aren't going to see a significant influx of new players regardless I agree with you. Hiring more people to fix things in that case is meaningless.

For an MMO like FFXIV that will be both new and popular, spending the time and money is absolutely critical to maximizing profit. S-E screwed up big time at the beginning of FFXI's life and did not maximize their potential profit. You can pick your favorite reason for why exactly they screwed up (ignorance of MMO genre, lack of manpower caused by company greed, arrogance of developers, poor communication, etc.) but it is an undeniable fact that they screwed up.

[Hyan]

Hmm, I don't think SE really screwed up at the beginning of XI, at least not in the way that you describe it. The playerbase rose steadily up until WoW's release. It wasn't as fast increase as in WoW, but for it's time the game was quite successful with all standards. Not the best way to gain profit as Blizzard showed after, but not a screw up either.

[Kaylia]

It depends. Keeping the forum server up is not free. Even BG had to collect 3k cash to keep their server up, and it'd be likely that SE would at least need a similar if not more expensive server to handle the traffic. Is this cheaper than implementing a random NPC to the game (or using an existing one) and creating few lines of script? Or perhaps telling the details in an update note or something.

I see your point and it is valid, but SE doesn't have to change their approach to provide you with information outside the game to do that. It isn't something that can only be done outside the game, and if it is, updates notes are enough to provide us with enough knowledge when necessary.

We are still talking about small costs compared to everything else. I couldn't host a mmo forum in my basement, but they have a lot more money rolling than you and I. The cost of a official forum is tiny compared to everything else they deal with.

Anyway, are you really comparing forum cost to a npc? Do you know they do need "information gathering" no matter what and that an official forum would help them greatly? Are you conscious that a forum post is easier to write than setting up something with role playing and flow well with the game? Do you really think an official website is optional in this age and time?

Or maybe there comes a point where companies have generated enough profit and will stop trying to get even more of it any way possible. Wars will end, poverty will be a thing of the past and everyone will have food to eat. Or maybe not, but of course SE is the only company that should change their ways. They're the evil ones. Skynet of the real world.

You know, people do quit the game when they are bored? They also quit the game when they feel something better is about to be released somewhere else.

If the developer don't want to listen to my request, and in the end, give me something that I don't want...I won't stay. That's what happened in FFXI, and if nothing change, it will happens again. If I know where they want to go, it will save me a lot of frustration.

Blizzard would give us even more content if they didn't communicate. Is WoW glitch free? Is there always enough content to last for the next update? If these things aren't in check, then spending funds on communication is a waste. There could be more

You have the worst case of tunnel vision I have encountered. Not everything is black and white, and not everything can be described with linear relation. The function to maximize profit is a complex one that involve many parameters, and investing more in both communication and content development will often give better result.

You want more content? Fine, but more content than what? They stop investing money when they aren't profiting from it. When the remaining players are people who wouldnt quit the game no matter what, they won't invest a lot. When you have new players who might leave for another mmo, they will do everything to keep them interested.

Listening to feedback and implementing changes and content based on that = good changes. That's the kind of "better communication" that would be good to see in XIV as opposed to XI.

Trust me, you -can't- listen your fanbase without a real talk. What do you think a "feed back" is? An angry forum post, a review on a website, the spam you get in your suggestion box? The 5 questions at an event?

When there is 3 layers of people between the developpers and the players, you know informations won't get throught correctly. You know that it will be filtered to a point where it won't address the players concern.

[Vacht]

Hmm, I don't think SE really screwed up at the beginning of XI, at least not in the way that you describe it. The playerbase rose steadily up until WoW's release. It wasn't as fast increase as in WoW, but for it's time the game was quite successful with all standards. Not the best way to gain profit as Blizzard showed after, but not a screw up either.

Do you have ANY experience playing MMOs besides WoW and FFXI?

[Lucavi]

Do you have ANY experience playing MMOs besides WoW and FFXI?

You see I've had to bow out of this discussion. Its like debating with a tube sock, or a hard-core Teabagger. Massive tunnel vision and an inability to think outside of FFXI's narrow section of the massive MMO market and history.

[Hyan]

We are still talking about small costs compared to everything else. I couldn't host a mmo forum in my basement, but they have a lot more money rolling than you and I. The cost of a official forum is tiny compared to everything else they deal with.

Anyway, are you really comparing forum cost to a npc? Do you know they do need "information gathering" no matter what and that an official forum would help them greatly? Are you conscious that a forum post is easier to write than setting up something with role playing and flow well with the game? Do you really think an official website is optional in this age and time?

It's still not an excuse. It can cost millions or thousands, and it's still resources going to waste.

I didn't start the comparison. Are you really comparing the two?

There is not much thought needed for "roleplaying" or "flow" withing the game when implementing some random NPC which only purpose is giving out tips.

You still have to set up the forum and necessary features before you can even start posting on the forum. It's easy once everything's set up.

That's pretty much the only useful thing I could see coming from two-ways communication. Or SE only has to design the content in a way that there won't be goblin drinks or almighty apkallus.

If you don't need official forum to do what's necessary, yes, it's optional. Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean it's mandatory.

You know, people do quit the game when they are bored? They also quit the game when they feel something better is about to be released somewhere else.

If the developer don't want to listen to my request, and in the end, give me something that I don't want...I won't stay. That's what happened in FFXI, and if nothing change, it will happens again. If I know where they want to go, it will save me a lot of frustration.

And usually they come back like a boomerang because what they thought was "better" was actually the opposite.

If people actually quit when they're bored, things wouldn't be this complicated as they are now. Addicts keep playing, and whine on the forums about things that make them annoyed/bored, but quit? Well, one can always wish...

If you can't play the game for what it is, that's not their problem. You're always free to go somewhere else. And if you decide to quit, not because the game is bad but because you don't like something they implemented... I don't know where your priorities are. Those kind of things only start to matter once I no longer find the game fun- and at that point quitting would be the ideal choice anyway.

You have the worst case of tunnel vision I have encountered. Not everything is black and white, and not everything can be described with linear relation. The function to maximize profit is a complex one that involve many parameters, and investing more in both communication and content development will often give better result.

You want more content? Fine, but more content than what? They stop investing money when they aren't profiting from it. When the remaining players are people who wouldnt quit the game no matter what, they won't invest a lot. When you have new players who might leave for another mmo, they will do everything to keep them interested.

It seems to be hard for you to grasp that I'm not talking about maximizing profits here- because if I cared about that, investing in both ways will definitely bring more profit than focusing in only one of them. But like I've said before, it's never been my point.

More content than what we have currently..? What question is that?

Trust me, you -can't- listen your fanbase without a real talk. What do you think a "feed back" is? An angry forum post, a review on a website, the spam you get in your suggestion box? The 5 questions at an event?

When there is 3 layers of people between the developpers and the players, you know informations won't get throught correctly. You know that it will be filtered to a point where it won't address the players concern.

Trust me, you -can- listen your fanbase without a real talk.

Now will you trust me when I said that? No proof, nothing... and you expect me to trust you? Sorry dude.

What happens when update rolls up? Topics pop up at the popular forums, and people start analyzing and reviewing the update. What they like, what they don't like.. that's the kind of feedback SE can use to provide better service in the future.

You don't need all opinions to form a view on what players' concerns are. "Players like this about event X, hate Y" "This change was not well received; players seem to want more of Z"... from that SE can start working on a solution that would appeal to players better. It's not really as complicated as you make it out to be. SE listening to player concerns and then implementing solutions in updates is the "real talk" you're talking about. The talk that makes shit happen. We tell what's wrong and right, SE responds based on that. Not some fluff chitchat that in the end provides SE with no more information than before.

Do you have ANY experience playing MMOs besides WoW and FFXI?

Why is that relevant to what you just quoted?

[Kaylia]

It's ressource going to waste? Did you read the post you quoted?


- They need to gather informations no matter what, and owning their own forum facilitate the process.
- From a security perspective (account stealing), making the official forum the most used forum is also good
- Setting up a forum in 2010 is -easy- and -cheap-, especially when they already have a huge website that already require you to login.


How are you going to implement a NPC that discuss about damage equation, treasure Hunter technical informations, or what's the purpose of Goblin gavotte? Are you going to conserve archive of this npc, implement more npc every time a question need to be answered? I agree that certain thing could/should be discussed in game (for example, AV weakness could have been mentioned in game), but not everything can be answered like this.

At this point, why not answer the questions when they are asked? The players would be a lot happier to have their questions answered directly, instead of waiting 3 months for the next updates.

Or just go in the interview section and look at Beckwin's interview..do you it's normal to ignore people for over 1 years, after promising them answer? Do you think it makes them look good to avoid these questions?

And usually they come back like a boomerang because what they thought was "better" was actually the opposite.

Say that to my server that average 1.5k when it used to be 5k.

The little world that consist of the 150 endgame players on every server isn't representative of what happen. They would still play the game if SE stopped updating their game completely, and because they can't quit, they won't get anything nice.

It seems to be hard for you to grasp that I'm not talking about maximizing profits here- because if I cared about that, investing in both ways will definitely bring more profit than focusing in only one of them. But like I've said before, it's never been my point.

More content than what we have currently..? What question is that?

But once you understand there is a strong correlation between maximizing your profit and giving your customers a better environment, it starts making sense.

Trust me, you -can- listen your fanbase without a real talk.

Now will you trust me when I said that? No proof, nothing... and you expect me to trust you? Sorry dude.

Do you see the fucking irony here? If you understand we can't understand each other without a dialogue, why do you think SquareEnix can understand us if they don't communicate with us?

I thought it was an evidence, but if you really want an explanation, I will give it to you.


Let's say you're at a fanfest and you're asked a question about a cheese sandwich. You think it's funny and bring the idea back to the developper who implement it to the game. What you don't know however is that everyone around was pissed at the stupid question, and adding it to the game piss them off even more. If you were in the crowd, maybe you would have realized this, but how can you since you stayed with them a whole 10 minutes.

The people who make the game should be the one listenning to the "issues". It's always a gamble if a 3rd party (or a 4th ) pass the message around. Why? Because sometime, you need to actually ask a question, to understand the question that was asked to you...however, someone who isn't directly related might miss the subtetly of the initial question.


And let's go with a quiz now.
Q) Why are people pissed at the cheese sandwich in the first place?
1) Because cheese sandwich are serious business
2) Because someone wasted a precious question on something useless when they know it's the only time of the year where they can "hope" to get an answer.
3) Because they were hungry


People want answer. We need them to appreciate the game, and Squareenix isnt answering.

What happens when update rolls up? Topics pop up at the popular forums, and people start analyzing and reviewing the update. What they like, what they don't like.. that's the kind of feedback SE can use to provide better service in the future.

Good lord.


Hyan: Forum cost trillions, hiring people to post on forum cost billions..your idea is stupid
Hyan: My solution is much better, hire people to read forum!

Are you kidding me?


Listening your fanbase doesn't mean to read thread title or make a poll, you have to do more. You need to place yourself in their shoes and try to understand the issue they have with the game, otherwise, your "answer" might go over their head. How can I make a game around your post, when I don't understand them? Skimming over a thread will give you the hot topic, but you need to do more to actually understand the players.


It doesnt stop to reading forum though, a good chunk of the playerbase will never log on them, and you have to catch their opinion somehow too.

[Kaylia]

tldr


If you want to understand the player base, you actually have to make a huge effort. If you don't include them in the development room to some extent, you will probably make the wrong game in the end.

[Hyan]

It's ressource going to waste? Did you read the post you quoted?


- They need to gather informations no matter what, and owning their own forum facilitate the process.
- From a security perspective (account stealing), making the official forum the most used forum is also good
- Setting up a forum in 2010 is -easy- and -cheap-, especially when they already have a huge website that already require you to login.


How are you going to implement a NPC that discuss about damage equation, treasure Hunter technical informations, or what's the purpose of Goblin gavotte? Are you going to conserve archive of this npc, implement more npc every time a question need to be answered? I agree that certain thing could/should be discussed in game (for example, AV weakness could have been mentioned in game), but not everything can be answered like this.

At this point, why not answer the questions when they are asked? The players would be a lot happier to have their questions answered directly, instead of waiting 3 months for the next updates.

Or just go in the interview section and look at Beckwin's interview..do you it's normal to ignore people for over 1 years, after promising them answer? Do you think it makes them look good to avoid these questions?

The point is that they already have their own system set up which doesn't involve official forums and forum posts by the devs, and there is no need for them to change that and give the same gaming experience as those companies who use different strategy provide. They can keep on expanding on what they have currently and the end result will be the same. Improvements can and need be done, but they don't have to change their ways to do that. They don't need to imitate Blizzard and post on the forums, they don't need to have official forums, and their isolationist policy is not going to be pull the game down.

If they want to tell us about damage equations, TH technical info and the purpose of goblin gavotte (What a silly question is this anyway? Are you serious?) it can all be implemented in-game, where more people will be able to see it anyway. Add the TH info to the description of the ability, make the damage equation explanations more precise in-game than what it is currently.. instead of having to go out of the game to look for the info. All can be done in-game, and SE doesn't have to change their ways to do this.

Say that to my server that average 1.5k when it used to be 5k.

The little world that consist of the 150 endgame players on every server isn't representative of what happen. They would still play the game if SE stopped updating their game completely, and because they can't quit, they won't get anything nice.

Games die... nice observation you made there. No matter what games came out, XI's subscriptions have been quite stable for a long time. Declining, but stable. Not many new games have made any difference to that fact (WoW having the biggest impact).

WoW is actually the best example of this. So many new games come out, people leave because they think it's "better", and month later come back to WoW anyway. It's been hilarious to watch for so many years now.

But once you understand there is a strong correlation between maximizing your profit and giving your customers a better environment, it starts making sense.

Hard to understand something that is faulty.

Do you see the fucking irony here? If you understand we can't understand each other without a dialogue, why do you think SquareEnix can understand us if they don't communicate with us?

I thought it was an evidence, but if you really want an explanation, I will give it to you.


Let's say you're at a fanfest and you're asked a question about a cheese sandwich. You think it's funny and bring the idea back to the developper who implement it to the game. What you don't know however is that everyone around was pissed at the stupid question, and adding it to the game piss them off even more. If you were in the crowd, maybe you would have realized this, but how can you since you stayed with them a whole 10 minutes.

The people who make the game should be the one listenning to the "issues". It's always a gamble if a 3rd party (or a 4th ) pass the message around. Why? Because sometime, you need to actually ask a question, to understand the question that was asked to you...however, someone who isn't directly related might miss the subtetly of the initial question.


And let's go with a quiz now.
Q) Why are people pissed at the cheese sandwich in the first place?
1) Because cheese sandwich are serious business
2) Because someone wasted a precious question on something useless when they know it's the only time of the year where they can "hope" to get an answer.
3) Because they were hungry


People want answer. We need them to appreciate the game, and Squareenix isnt answering.

There will always be a 3rd party involved. These guys are Japanese, if you already forgot. They don't understand what we're saying. Somebody needs to translate that shit to them, it doesn't matter what kind of communication we're having, there's always the 3rd party (translater) involved. I guess they should only communicate with the Japanese, but that's a really odd suggestion to make.

Yes, addicts got pissed at the cheese sandwich question because the game is sirius business. No matter what the question would have been makes no difference in the end, but hey, let's get pissed anyway. And even though what SE answered to the public, they could have read through all the questions presented and while they only picked X to answer, doesn't mean that all other questions were ignored.

And you still keep implying that I don't think SE should communicate with us. How many times do I have to say that SE should communicate with us but they don't need to answer our questions to communicate well enough.

Hyan: Forum cost trillions, hiring people to post on forum cost billions..your idea is stupid
Hyan: My solution is much better, hire people to read forum!

Are you kidding me?


Listening your fanbase doesn't mean to read thread title or make a poll, you have to do more. You need to place yourself in their shoes and try to understand the issue they have with the game, otherwise, your "answer" might go over their head. How can I make a game around your post, when I don't understand them? Skimming over a thread will give you the hot topic, but you need to do more to actually understand the players.


It doesnt stop to reading forum though, a good chunk of the playerbase will never log on them, and you have to catch their opinion somehow too.

Don't put words in my mouth.

SE is already doing what I described, and it's not inferior to having an official forum. You can disagree with their decision all you want, but their way can provide just as good game as your way. This is what I'm saying. SE doesn't have to change to give us a better game.

This whole debate started from your comment about how you wish SE was more like Blizzard when it comes to communication. But Blizzard's way is just another way to do things. Way that feeds on addicts that rage about cheese sandwich.

Give me an example of an issue that might go over devs heads if they're not on your shoes, because I can't think of one.

[Kaylia]

Don't put words in my mouth.

SE is already doing what I described, and it's not inferior to having an official forum. You can disagree with their decision all you want, but their way can provide just as good game as your way. This is what I'm saying. SE doesn't have to change to give us a better game.

It did not provide a good game, it provided a terrible gaming experience for the last few years, bar a few things. Almost everyone who stayed this long did it because they had friends, and enjoyed their linkshells. There is an handful of people that truly enjoy the game, as a game right now. You have the addict who can't leave their epenis behind, you have people who enjoy the social aspect, and you have people who forgot to cancel their account. When I log in, 95% of the people are afk in their moghouse, and occasionally check if something is going on...is it the game you want? Is it even a game?

If FFXI is your definition of successful game, than so be it, but you're going against everything you said. The amount of fail events vs succesful events should tell you how disconected from their fanbase they were.

WoW is actually the best example of this. So many new games come out, people leave because they think it's "better", and month later come back to WoW anyway. It's been hilarious to watch for so many years now.

So, WoW is the best if everyone come back to it? Yet, doing the opposite of what blizzard do is your solution? Actually, doing the opposite of nearly every succesful company out there is your solution?


Right....

Hard to understand something that is faulty.

Probably why I can't understand your thought process.

Give me an example of an issue that might go over devs heads if they're not on your shoes, because I can't think of one.

-The drama that destroy endgame that is fueled by the lack of reward or poor system
-The difficulty to find (and motivate) other players to do content when there is no incensitive.
-The difficulty for a new (casual) players to participate in the endgame

It's not something you can easily understand unless you actually went through it. You can understand it from a technical standpoint, but addressing the issue correctly require you a perfect understanding of the situation.


In theory, you could eventually get it right observing the players and their reactions, however, the process is a lot slower than actually discussing it with the customer.


When you're hired to write a program for the customer, you include the customer in nearly every step, you ask him to test it, you ask him his opinion, and you try to produce something he will be happy with. It's the same shit for a game.

That's what the beta test is for, but it's not a reason to stop after.