Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Kaylia]

There will always be a 3rd party involved. These guys are Japanese, if you already forgot. They don't understand what we're saying. Somebody needs to translate that shit to them, it doesn't matter what kind of communication we're having, there's always the 3rd party (translater) involved. I guess they should only communicate with the Japanese, but that's a really odd suggestion to make.

I'm sure it's impossible to hire 2 or 3 developper that understand both language, they can't afford it.

[Hyan]

It did not provide a good game, it provided a terrible gaming experience for the last few years, bar a few things. Almost everyone who stayed this long did it because they had friends, and enjoyed their linkshells. There is an handful of people that truly enjoy the game, as a game right now. You have the addict who can't leave their epenis behind, you have people who enjoy the social aspect, and you have people who forgot to cancel their account. When I log in, 95% of the people are afk in their moghouse, and occasionally check if something is going on...is it the game you want? Is it even a game?

If FFXI is your definition of successful game, than so be it, but you're going against everything you said. The amount of fail events vs succesful events should tell you how disconected from their fanbase they were.

No, the lack of funds is what provided the gaming experience. The game got old, and new MMO is on the horizon. All logical reasons to remove funds and manpower from the game and give them to some other project.

If what you described happens after 8 years of service, then I don't really care. Most likely I'll be playing some other game by then. If you say that after 8 years that kind of thing happens the game is not successful, then I can't help but disagree. If I have fun with XIV for 3-4 years, that's already more than enough. These things aren't supposed to last forever.

Just because of your opinion about the game is negative doesn't mean that I'm going against everything I said. "Fail event" and "Successful event" is not for you or me to decide, and it's not always the fault that they weren't listening that some event is less successful than the other.

So, WoW is the best if everyone come back to it? Yet, doing the opposite of what blizzard do is your solution? Actually, doing the opposite of nearly every succesful company out there is your solution?

Retarded logic. Not everyone came back to it, and people did exactly the same thing in FFXI (even when switching from XI to WoW, but in lesser degree). So, FFXI is the best? Let's miss the point some more!

Doing what they're already doing is the solution. It's different from the rest, so it must be wrong? Right...

Addressing the issue correctly require you a perfect understanding of the situation.

Why? Sounds pretty self-explanatory to me. You're making it seem more complex than it is.

In theory, you could eventually get it right observing the players and their reactions, however, the process is a lot slower than actually discussing it with the customer.

If people see a problem, they'll discuss it. There's no need for SE to come in.
Especially when it comes to problems that need most attention. If people don't talk about an issue, it's not big enough to warrant fixing. Priorities are important.

When you're hired to write a program for the customer, you include the customer in nearly every step, you ask him to test it, you ask him his opinion, and you try to produce something he will be happy with. It's the same shit for a game.

That's what the beta test is for, but it's not a reason to stop after.

And all of these steps require no communication from the company's end. You test it, you give them your opinion, they will produce something you like. And all is well, if the dev is good.

I'm sure it's impossible to hire 2 or 3 developper that understand both language, they can't afford it.

And those guys can't lurk the forums? No 3rd party involved then.

[arus2001]

One admittance of the dev process that was made for XI was that anything added to the game had be to unanimously agreed upon. While this may lead to some WTFs from the players when crappy things somehow manage to get through (Maybe they got through because they were crappy?), I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that we got deprived of content because of one dev or a revenge vote later on down the road.

I can only see this unanimous system working if you're dealing with limited resources, but the reality of the limit is that the number of customers dictates this. Setting a budget for X players and never adjusting that later even if you're running at 5X is silly, especially if jumping to 2X cost could get you to 10X users. Anyway, this is a point I've made before, and while it may be a gamble, it's to be done in a calculated manner involving feedback from users on content currently in existence and what they'd like to see. Pair this along with serverside statistics to get some validity to player claims, and you have your foothold.

Shifting to a majority vote process will arguably require more resources. Player opinion could also further weight the importance of an idea's implementation if there are a number in the "not unanimous" status. The players won't need to know the fine details of stuff like mob placement, bosses, or what exactly comes from the event, but they could be given a loose idea of environment, objectives, foes, target level/skill range, and so on.

You can't expect everyone to be pleased by additions drawn from this, but I'd reiterate that devs can't think of everything. By proxy, they can't represent the entirety of their customers, either. The subtlety of these missed windows add up. Lack of job adjustments, lack of useful things to craft, lack of gear to complement a spell/ability, UI tweaks, and so on. People start talking about these, other people start noticing them, too. It snowballs. It becomes reviews. It becomes gossip. It becomes reasons people quit. It becomes reasons people never join.

[Hyan]

I can only see this unanimous system working if you're dealing with limited resources, but the reality of the limit is that the number of customers dictates this. Setting a budget for X players and never adjusting that later even if you're running at 5X is silly, especially if jumping to 2X cost could get you to 10X users.

What is the logic behind this assumption? It makes sense up to certain point, but I don't understand how having 5x the players would make the company up the budget?

If the current budget keeps the 1x playerbase playing, how does playerbase growing to 5x change anything? Why is the current budget not going to keep the 5x playerbase playing?

[arus2001]

The point is to win over other people who might be on the fence or possibly even left because they didn't like something initially. There's also the matter of player morale, where even if something might release buggy or in need of some tweaks, people will be more likely to believe they're trying instead of being lazy, stupid, or whatever.

Back to money, just using $15/mo as a subscription fee, over a year 500k users would net $90,000,000. Let's say it takes 2 million a month to run things. 90m - 24m = 66m profit in 12 months. If doubling your running expenses can get you 1m users, you jump up to 180m a year, 48m in costs, and 132m in profit.

Sure, SE could get that 132m in two years by just keeping things the same, but they could also have 264m in the same time. If all things pan out well, we should expect this game to last 5 years, if not more. Pair that with people being sick of WoW (in part due to age) along with FFXI, and the potential is high for a large number of users. It's just a matter of intelligently investing. It's a sick amount of cash no matter how you look at it, though. and we're not even counting initial sales where the game will probably be $50 a pop at first.

[Hyan]

I still don't understand why it would be silly for SE to not adjust the budget for X players if there are 5X players? If it keeps X players playing, why not the 5X players? It'd mean even more profit if they don't adjust. And this is when the X budget is so much that adding more won't give any more significant increase in the new amount of players joining in.

Also, I don't think there is much correlation between the users joining and the budget of the game (post-release). If the game as a whole is good, I would expect (almost) the same amount of new people to join in, regardless of SE doubling the funds or not. Of course at the start of the game more funds are needed than later on, but I think it'd be the same thing, regardless of the playerbase's size.

[arus2001]

There probably is a potential budget cap, where no matter what you do after, players just won't be able to keep up. As is, it's safe to assume they're being conservative because they don't know how people will react to the game. Production will probably be paid for (if not already by XI) after the first couple months. However, there's also no refuting that spending too little can hurt their bottom line in the long term, and one way or another, XI failed to keep a lot of people before it got to the "old game" stage. They need to edge toward that cap, the main goal being it increases the number of satisfied users.

Just looking at Aion, the first 6 months of an MMO's life are critical. NC hasn't done a terribly good job in giving people things to do to keep them from doing the boomerang thing or trying something else new like STO. And while they've done a bit more communicating than SE, it's still been pretty miserable and their forums are terribad due to crap design and lack of moderation. However, we don't know how much the Korean branch has the Western unit by the balls.

[Hyan]

NCSoft always has the Korea on their side, no matter what... and those guys will play anything with lvl100 cap and ability to make a +8 sword with +0,001% chance... bad for us, though. They don't really even have to try to keep the people playing over there, lol.

[Cureslime]

Resummarizing the collective argument because Hyan doesn't get it:

- You have to spend more money than the absolute minimum to maximize your profits on an MMO because quality is critical to your profit.
- For a new game the spending of that money to make your game the absolute best possible game it can be makes all the difference in the world. If you don't do it your game will crash and burn and all your players will just run back to WoW.
- The point where you can start letting your support fall off a cliff is FAR after release, not at the point of release as you're suggesting.

I imagine Hyan to be an executive at a gaming company: "Why are we still paying developers, a marketing department, and tech support? Our MMO has already released. Fire them all!"

[Hyan]

Cureslime, have I hurt your feelings before? Or you just being an ass for no reason here?

I understood all that before you "summarized" it, what made you think I didn't? Where do I suggest that you can let the support fall off at the point of release? More than anything, I've been saying the opposite:

Of course at the start of the game more funds are needed than later on, but I think it'd be the same thing, regardless of the playerbase's size.

If you have nothing constructive to add, get out.

[Vacht]

You see I've had to bow out of this discussion. Its like debating with a tube sock, or a hard-core Teabagger. Massive tunnel vision and an inability to think outside of FFXI's narrow section of the massive MMO market and history.

srsly. Like.... double U tee eff. I just -read- his responses and im right there with you, lol.

[Cureslime]

I'm not stirring this hornet's nest more. I apologize for listing you by name but you're the only person on your side of the argument. I'm stepping out of the thread.

[Kaylia]

And those guys can't lurk the forums? No 3rd party involved then.

And these lurkers can't post? I mean come on..


Your argument earlier was that it cost too much to post, and now you want them to lurk forums instead. To justify this already fuck up position, you pretend that an official is a bad bad bad idea.

Retarded logic. Not everyone came back to it, and people did exactly the same thing in FFXI (even when switching from XI to WoW, but in lesser degree). So, FFXI is the best? Let's miss the point some more!

Doing what they're already doing is the solution. It's different from the rest, so it must be wrong? Right...

FFXI stopped growing before WoW. Using your logic, their actions has nothing to do with the lifespan of the game....sure, it's bound to die eventually, but depending what you do, it might live a lot longer.

[Siatdiat]

Hyans is 10000000000 times more annoying to read than Derfthegalka, but derfthegalka gets banned. Should just ban everyone that more than 10 people find annoying.

[Hyan]

And these lurkers can't post? I mean come on..


Your argument earlier was that it cost too much to post, and now you want them to lurk forums instead. To justify this already fuck up position, you pretend that an official is a bad bad bad idea.

They don't have to. And the way SE is doing it is using non-dev people anyway- the devs have more things to do than read forums. Those people can see what the issues are, even if they're not developers. They could be normal players, just like us. They're the 3rd party that knows the subtlety of the issues. But they're not the ones that can speak for SE on the forums. And if the devs would rather focus on developing the game than feeding addicts on the forums, it's not the wrong approach to take. Talking to players is like talking to brick wall most of the time, anyway. A lost effort.

And I'm still not saying that official forum is a bad idea, I'm saying that it's not the only way to do things. Don't put words in my mouth, for the Xth time.

FFXI stop growing much faster than WoW and started dying much faster.

Not exactly. A recent article shows something else:

The incredible expansion of World of Warcraft that began on its launch day in 2004(!) has ended. According to Blizzard's Mike Morhaime, WoW's subscription based has been hovering at around 11.5 million users since 2008.

For a game that came out at the end of 2004, that is somewhere between 3 and 4 years.
FFXI on the other hand, that came out early 2002, stopped growing shortly after WoW was released, so after somewhere between 3 years as well.

And as far as we know, both games held on large part of their subscriber base long time after the growth had ended. We don't know exact numbers for either game, but we also can't draw conclusions from XI's recent decline because we don't know how WoW will look like in 3 years. When WoW2 has been announced, we'll see what happens.

Hyans is 10000000000 times more annoying to read than Derfthegalka, but derfthegalka gets banned. Should just ban everyone that more than 10 people find annoying.

Awww, is someone you disagree with being annoying on the interwebs? Maybe the mods should force him to change his opinion to the "right" one, since obviously the more people on your side of the argument the more correct your views are? God exists, peeps!

[Kaylia]

And the way SE is doing it is using non-dev people anyway- the devs have more things to do than read forums.

Let's just put it this way. You never programmed, and don't seem to understand development at all. Yes, there is many way to gather informations and I agree, but "investing more money in content" was your argument.

A direct talk with the customer will always be the most efficient method, and will always beat indirect method. If the development team live in a underground bunker, they won't make appropriate content.




You said that official forum are a bad idea because they cost millions, and these millions would be better invested if it was ingame "content". I'm putting word in your mouth, because thats pretty much what you said.

[Hyan]

That's if the customer knows what he wants- and would you believe, that's not nearly always the case.

It's not necessary to know precisely what's the problem. Knowing the general problem is enough, as long as you want to put out content that is original and not a rehash. Developers should use their imagination to create solutions, taking the precise route is often the most boring one.

But of course it's not the only way, but it's one way- that SE sports. Direct talk with customer is not important in that case. You can say that it's a bad way, but then we'll just agree to disagree.

I did not exaggerate, and even if I did, it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. Forums cost thousands, not millions, and yes, those thousands are better used to make in-game experience better. Or actually, if you say it's the same effort/gain ratio no matter which system is used, then it doesn't really matter which system is used. Except when you already are using one system, it would be sensible to keep using it in the future.

[Kaylia]

For a game that came out at the end of 2004, that is somewhere between 3 and 4 years.
FFXI on the other hand, that came out early 2002, stopped growing shortly after WoW was released, so after somewhere between 3 years as well.

WoW has been out for 5 years and half
FFXI PC has been out for 6 years and half. That's how long they had to keep their customer interest in america. Add one years for jp

Hovering around 11.5millions is a better feat than hovering around 500k (if the number is true). If you take into account the number of people who own consoles, 11.5m is a huge chunk of the population that is remotely interested to gaming, but that's beyond the point.


My point is, what % of this population do you think *play* the game. I played both WoW and FFXI a lot, and I have to say, WoW players will actually do content when they log in, unlike most FFXI players who are afk in a city.

If the content was so awesome in FFXI, you wouldnt have 3/4 of the server afk inside a city. You are saying that FFXI did something right, maybe, but they didn't do something right for the players.

[Kaylia]

That's if the customer knows what he wants- and would you believe, that's not nearly always the case.

At which point in the conversation did I ask for a literal interpretation of the customer demands. Smart developpers will know what question to ask, and take the appropriate decision.

[Hyan]

WoW has been out for 5 years and half
FFXI PC has been out for 6 years and half. That's how long they had to keep their customer interest in america. Add one years for jp

Hovering around 11.5millions is a better feat than hovering around 500k (if the number is true). If you take into account the number of people who own consoles, 11.5m is a huge chunk of the population that is remotely interested to gaming, but that's beyond the point.

Bigger numbers = better game? That certainly wasn't the case for me.

When the game was supposed to have around 100k users in the first place, 500k is a nice feat indeed. The game's are in a whole different league altogether.

Plus half+ of those peeps come from China, where the game was released only afterwards. The growth probably stopped in the US long before it did in China.

My point is, what % of this population do you think *play* the game. I played both WoW and FFXI a lot, and I have to say, WoW players will actually do content when they log in, unlike most FFXI players who are afk in a city.

Yes, well, if out of 2500 people 200 are in whitegate and 100 others scattered around other cities of the globe, that is certainly "most FFXI players". When you run out of content you start idling in the mog house, and at that point it's better to quit anyway. Instead of being dragged around like a zombie with no self control over his actions.

At which point in the conversation did I ask for a literal interpretation of the customer demands. Smart developpers will know what question to ask, and take the appropriate decision.

Why ask, when the answers don't reflect the real demands?