Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Kaylia]

Bigger numbers = better game? That certainly wasn't the case for me.

In a mmo, yes, it kinda means a better game, because people would ditch it fast otherwise.

Yes, well, if out of 2500 people 200 are in whitegate and 100 others scattered around other cities of the globe, that is certainly "most FFXI players". When you run out of content you start idling in the mog house, and at that point it's better to quit anyway. Instead of being dragged around like a zombie with no self control over his actions.

That's not the number I was getting on my server when I left.

Why ask, when the answers don't reflect the real demands?

Because someone smart is able to do more than a literal interpretation. He is able to make the difference between unreasonable request and reasonable one, he will be able to make compromise....etc

[Hyan]

In a mmo, yes, it kinda means a better game, because people would ditch it fast otherwise.

Uhh, yeah. You can't have a good MMO without playerbase in the millions. I completely forgot.

That's not the number I was getting on my server when I left.

I'm sure it wasn't. More like 600 players online, 700 of those in whitegate idling, right?

Because someone smart is able to do more than a literal interpretation. He is able to make the difference between unreasonable request and reasonable one, he will be able to make compromise....etc

And that is not what I even meant. Whatever the player tells you, doesn't matter. That is not what he truly wishes for, and only by developers making it he will realize what he really likes. Not same old content just bigger and better, but new content he wouldn't have even thought of. Not just tweaking existing abilities on jobs, but adding completely new ones that revolutionize them. Players will think of things that they've already experienced, but developers can create something more than just that. If you haven't experienced something before, you can't know if you'll like it more than what you have currently available.

Developers can go the failsafe way and just do what the players tell them. That results in a dull, but guaranteed to be liked by players experience. But there's always something better, and if developers only do what the players tell them, we'll never see it. And if the company wants to sport a tactic where they strive to look out for those better things, you don't need to get precise answers from the players. You will get hits, and you get misses, depending on who you ask the opinion- but I found this always to be more fascinating method than just doing what you're told, even if the results vary.

It's why I didn't like WoW in the end. Especially when my thoughts about what the game needs differed from the rest of the playerbase, and thus the developers as well. I am so glad it wasn't the case for you, but there is some validity to where I'm coming from as well.

[Kaylia]

They can tell from the number they gather after the fact (popularity of an event), but the process is incredibly slow and inefficient.

The fact that you're arguing that it's a proper method for information gathering is laughable.

[arus2001]

Calling bullshit on players never being able to suggest anything unique, too. Things like mod communities wouldn't exist if that was never the case. Sadly, XI never really got to this phase due to the POL bottleneck and a general lack of behind-the-scenes code to make mobs/events functional outside of official servers, but I'm gonna boldly state that if players could make a mod version, it'd blow the vanilla away when in the hands of those with the knowhow.

[Kaylia]

Calling bullshit on players never being able to suggest anything unique, too. Things like mod communities wouldn't exist if that was never the case. Sadly, XI never really got to this phase due to the POL bottleneck and a general lack of behind-the-scenes code to make mobs/events functional outside of official servers, but I'm gonna boldly state that if players could make a mod version, it'd blow the vanilla away when in the hands of those with the knowhow.

Windower is the probably the best example of this. I was literally about to leave the game since dead time in FFXI were too common, and I had nothing to do but to wait (since you couldn't alt tab).


In a fanbase, you have hundred of talented person who could works for your company...keeping them away from the development team ( indiretly) is a waste, since they cost nothing, and can produce a lot.

[Hyan]

Calling bullshit on players never being able to suggest anything unique, too. Things like mod communities wouldn't exist if that was never the case. Sadly, XI never really got to this phase due to the POL bottleneck and a general lack of behind-the-scenes code to make mobs/events functional outside of official servers, but I'm gonna boldly state that if players could make a mod version, it'd blow the vanilla away when in the hands of those with the knowhow.

Whatever mod communities give us, it might be new, but very predictable. There aren't really any innovations there, just the normal, logical stuff to make things easier and more efficient. Very straight-forward.

Ask players what they'd like from a new MMO; the answers are always the same, predictable ones that only take from other games and experiences as solutions. "WoW does this lol, maybe X should too" "Do u rememebr X from Y? That was cool, but I hope its BIGGER this time!" "Well idk I want new races and classes and customization options lol" "I hope the UI is better and customer service too" "Its gotta have RAIDS! PvPvEvRvRvP"

And then you get games with amazing innovations such as Aion. 'aight peeps, there's what you wanted, happy now?

"It's boring" "I've played this through in some other game already.. wish I remembered which"........

Predictable things get boring.

[Kaylia]

Predictable things get boring.

Still better than the letdown SquareEnix toss at us. I would rather have a predictable useful content, than something that serve no purpose, and is not fun.


Also, people leave aion because there is no endgame. Do I need to remember you what was FFXI endgame for the first years? Yeah....


"WoW allow you to trade BoP items for the next 2 hours after they dropped, maybe FFXIV shouldn't do it to be different"
You keep bringing the argument about originality, but there is thing that are right and should be reused. It might lack originality, but you don't need to replace the wheel with a square just because you want to be different...

[Hyan]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. To me, predictable content is even less fun. I was rarely let down by Square, but that takes the whole topic to an area you have hard time understanding, so I'll end it there.

And no, people leave Aion because it is boring. You can't imply that out of all the people who've quit, left because of endgame when only a part of those people made it there in the first place. The game was rated "the most disappointing MMO of 2009" and I'm sure most of the voters aren't the ones that made it to endgame, especially with how the grind gets in the end..

There are many ways to doing similar things. Quest based progression doesn't have to go, but it sure as hell can be changed to something more original. And I'm not saying that SE should figure out a completely new approach for every issue out there, but only in the big picture.

[Kaylia]

How many people didn't make it past lv 30 because FFXI was too boring?

I too like original content, but don't fucking tell me shit like chocobo racing is fun. Original =/= fun. How it's done is what matter, and Square sadly failled to deliver when they attempted something original.

No one want FFXIV to be like WoW, but constantly putting down any comparaison using originality is stupid. I don't want FFXIV to be around quest grinding, but I don't want it to be about crab grinding either.

[Hyan]

How many people voted FFXI as the "Most disappointing MMO of 200X"?

Just like I've said before, when you attempt something new, its a hit or miss. Especially when a good concept is watered down by a weak limited game engine.

All I'm sayin', is that if you want to be original, you don't have to have a direct talk with the players. It's not even efficient to have one, either. You don't have to pinpoint the exact needs and desires, and thoughts.

[Kaylia]

You know, dissapointment is linked to the hype. Many people who played FFXI had no expectation, because they didn't know what a mmo was. The average mmo player in 2005 isnt the same player in 2009-2010.


If FFXI had a strength, it's that it managed to build a community by forcing players to play together, and that's what kept it alive for so long. However, the gameplay itself is lackluster at best, as a game, and I sincerely doubt something similar in 2010 would know the same success.

All I'm sayin', is that if you want to be original, you don't have to have a direct talk with the players. It's not even efficient to have one, either. You don't have to pinpoint the exact needs and desires, and thoughts.

You don't have to talk with the players for the core mechanics, but the tweaking require a good understanding of the playerbase, and tweaking in a mmo is often the difference between heaven and hell.


Salvage before the change is one of the best example. Why did it take SE 6 months (or was it a year?) to fix something the player base realized after half a day? If Blizzard had made that mistake, there is a good chance it would have been patched within 1 week, but SE choose to ignore it. Why? It makes no sense.

However, the developper never try to defend their ideas since they are locked in a bunker deep under japan. If they actually had to answer of their acts, maybe they would realize their mistake faster (and the good move as well).

[Hyan]

So, SE made an MMO for the average mmo player of 2005... such a horrible thing to do, right?

You don't have to talk with the players for the core mechanics, but the tweaking require a good understanding of the playerbase, and tweaking in a mmo is often the difference between heaven and hell.

Tweaking is exactly what it means; fine-tuning. If the game is overall good, it's not a matter of life and death if there are minor dislikes. There will always be. If you get rid of one, there will be 2 more soon enough.

I don't understand, what was wrong with Salvage that it needed "fixing"? It certainly could have used tweaking, but it was completely fine as is. There was no need to "fix" anything.

If it's an outright glitch, then it should be taken care of fast. But players aren't going to form an opinion about the event in "half a day". Maybe the event didn't need any tweaking? What kind of tweaking? Players need to explore the content and get used to it before they start seeing these things.

Defending yourself to the players? Haha, what a shit storm that will be. Players are the ones needing to realize their mistakes in their logic, but SE telling them that ain't gonna do it. The things that need defending are more often cause of player ignorance and bias more than the devs "mistake".

[Kaylia]

I'm just saying mmo context changed. They wouldn't get away with half of the stuff they gave us back then, because people saw "better" now and don't want to go back. If their mentality don't change for FFXIV, it's going to be another Aion.

Tweaking is exactly what it means; fine-tuning. If the game is overall good, it's not a matter of life and death if there are minor dislikes. There will always be. If you get rid of one, there will be 2 more soon enough.

No, tweaking is life and death. I gave two example over the last few posts.

The lack of alt-tabbing early.
Salvage without chest

It wasn't 2 minor dislike, it prevented a large portion of the player base to play the game.

Are you arguing there was no need to add the 10 cells chest? You just locked out half of the melee jobs out of the events, making the event practically impossible to organize due to the very specific job requirement.

Defending yourself to the players? Haha, what a shit storm that will be. Players are the ones needing to realize their mistakes in their logic, but SE telling them that ain't gonna do it.

"Bend over and take it in the ass" is your motto?

Damn players for designing AV, choose to get a 20% drop rate on sea pop item, a 30% spawn rate on AV, an event that required specific jobs...
Damn them for not "exploring" the content correctly.


Anyway, I wasted way too much time here. Try not getting hit by a train in your tunnel and take care.

[Hyan]

Yeah, I'm sure the people back in the 1800's wouldn't want to go back there if they saw the technology we have now. Does it make the technology of that time any less impressive for it's time? No.

Of course as time goes on, everything advances and changes, most of time for the better. Old things can try keeping up, but more often than not it requires more effort than what it's worth.

Your first example is a valid one, but I think it goes beyond just "tweaking" things. Windower is a big thing.

Salvage without chest made things more difficult.. so I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard toned the event the hell down after a week because it was too difficult. Being difficult and actually having to use some meds is not a life or death matter for "large portion of the population".

You never needed more than one job with hand-to-hand skill. That didn't make the event "practically impossible to organize". You're pretty heavy on exaggerating, I might say. You never had to wait more than few mins to get the first weapon cell, at which point it's the same what DD there are.

At least I never had a problem for half a year when doing Salvage with zomg, one monk and the rest were thieves, dragoons, dark knights, warriors... When the update came I was like "hey, cool" but it's nowhere near the make or break deal that you make it out to be. Have a monk/pup/thf in your group, and you're set. I CAN'T ORGANIZE IT WITH THESE LIMITATIONZ, GAME BREAKING indeed. Go to any event without a THF and you don't deserve to be there in the first place, anyway.

"Bend over and take it in the ass" is your motto?

Damn players for designing AV, choose to get a 20% drop rate on sea pop item, a 30% spawn rate on AV, an event that required specific jobs...
Damn them for not "exploring" the content correctly.

No, but I rather try to take all the perspectives into account before judging them. I know, this is too hard for most people. It's so much easier to be a player that doesn't have to care about half the things that the devs have to take into account to do just about anything, and then blame them. "Just drop the PS2 support lolz, everyone has a PC nowadays that doesn't ruin the game for anyone and even if it does, tough luck it's not me getting owned there lols". "Just raise the drop rates lols, even though the whole game is designed to not reward you from the start, you can change things now without it not fucking anything up." Fuck yes, listen to the players SE, we're the intelligent ones here...

[Kaylia]

Difficulty =/= balance issue


I shouldnt have to explain you the difference.

[Hyan]

There is no balance issue.

[Kaylia]

Are you retarded, or are you trolling?

[Kaylia]

If something require a specific job to be remotely succesful, a job that was up to now never required for anything, it's a serious design issue.


If no one do the content because "it's a pain in the ass to find people for it", there is a balance issue. Salvage was directed at everyone, but not everyone could do it simply because you needed specific jobs at first.

Beside, even with 1 mnk, you could get screwed up royally. You had to bring a shit load of potion, and hope to be lucky within the first few mobs.


[edit]

Oh, and btw, bringing potion isn't "difficult", it's an hassle, especially in the context of the game where you are playing with a very limited inventory

[Hyan]

So anything that requires a tank, healer and/or DD's as well as buffers, is a design issue?

Are you retarded or perhaps trolling? No one does Salvage? Oh yeah, all the people are in whitegate...

[Kaylia]

Many job can tank, and since the game always required a tank/healer/dd, you have many tank/DD/healer around.