Randomly Ridiculous FFXI to FFXIV

[Kaylia]

Are you retarded or perhaps trolling? No one does Salvage? Oh yeah, all the people are in whitegate...

Because they added a chest with 10 cells 6-8 fuckings month after?

[Hyan]

Paladin and Ninja can tank anything that matters. Two jobs.

It's all the same as needing a job with hand-to-hand skill in Salvage. Few jobs can do it, that's not a design issue or then the whole damn game is a design issue. It's not forbidden to use logic.

There were many tank/healer around? I sometimes had trouble even finding DD's.. you're out of your mind.

[Hyan]

And only then people started doing the event? Uhh..

[Kaylia]

Paladin and Ninja can tank anything that matters. Two jobs.

It's all the same as needing a job with hand-to-hand skill in Salvage. Few jobs can do it, that's not a design issue or then the whole damn game is a design issue. It's not forbidden to use logic.

There were many tank/healer around? I sometimes had trouble finding DD's.. you're out of your mind.

So for the love of god, do it.


Have you tried punching thing to death on warrior or thief in salvage before? No...I thought so. You needed a mnk if you wanted to pass the first floor reliably in less than 60 minutes (unless it was bhaflau or zhayolm).

And only then people started doing the event? Uhh..

There was maybe 3-4 party that were doing it per server, all of them with mnk. Salvage got popular after they added the chest, because it became much easier to build a succesful party for it. You didn't have to relate on specific jobs and luck to perform.

[Hyan]

You seem very eager to put words in my mouth when you know nothing about me.

Yes, there have been numerous times when we've had to use thieves warriors and ninjas to get through the first floors, especially during the start when things weren't as established as they were later. It's never been an issue. Sure, monk makes everything faster for sure, but it's no make or break deal. There's always the "perfect setup", but you never need one to make progress.

If you don't want to accept it, fine.

There was maybe 3-4 party that were doing it per server, all of them with mnk. Salvage got popular after they added the chest, because it became much easier to build a succesful party for it. You didn't have to relate on specific jobs and luck to perform.

And you have -NO- way of knowing this. At All. Seriously, if all you will do is talk shit out of your ass, there's no point to this debate. I can toss up random numbers from my ass too and there's really nothing you can do about it. Other events need specific jobs to perform. Salvage is no different. It never stopped people who wanted to do it.

[Kaylia]

I'm sure it was a lot of fun to punch thing naked for 30 minutes when mnk could have done it 3 times faster. It's also pretty fun to convince people to come back after a week "I SWEAR, YOU MIGHT GET A DROP BY 2034, COME TO SALVAGE".

You're the first person to defend pre-chest salvage as a "succesful event", but again, you suffer from stockholme syndrome, so it's not surprising. Salvage is my favorite events in game for a few reasons, but to say it was balanced or "playable" before is fucking stupid.



Out of curiosity, how do you defend the 20% drop rate on spawn item in sea on the release? Kill Fortitude 10 times for a virtue, kill hope and NOTHING. Oh man, the game was so challenging back then, it was -fun-.

[Hyan]

Actually, I'm not the first nor last one to defend Salvage of the early days. It wasn't "glitched", there was no "balance issue"... any event can be better if we start being anal. Same with Salvage. Same with everything out there.

SE made a game with low drop rates and effort/reward ratio. That's all there is to it. The game may be better if they hadn't, but they had no way of knowing that back then. The whole game is designed that way. There's no going back without significant effort that will most likely break the game more than fix it.

Also, it's better to have less rewarding content at start than too rewarding. Either way you have to tune the content, but if it's too rewarding you have to Nerf it- and players won't like that in the slightest, even if it's necessary for game balance. When you're sure that you don't at least have to nerf the content down later, the set up is much better. If it needs fixing, raise the drop rate. Players will like that.

[arus2001]

Psychological tendencies in response to effort:reward wasn't something that was invented with XI. Shit jobs in the real world have high turnover rates. People mainly do them because they have to for one reason or another, but that doesn't make the job any better. Hell, CBS has been airing some undercover boss show lately where a company CEO goes back to work in the trenches incognito. Sure, it might make good TV to point out shit conditions that had 'em scratching their head, but they also turned around and did some things about it. Little grievances like these will almost always get lost in the chain of command unless something blows up and hits the news (Hey, does this sound familiar?!) because people never really get to interact with the big boss since the little boss might lose his job if it doesn't seem like he's performing like a good little corporate drone.

At this point, apparently the only good MMO is an MMO Hyan likes, majority opinion be damned. Arguing otherwise is like listening to BRP prattle about how RPGs aren't RPGs because the world has rules and the story material is finite. Nevermind the hypocrisy of demanding innovation on limited budgets while ignoring the bare minimum requirements of what must be done that separates an MMO from a game with online capabilities while still being faithful to the genre.

[Kaylia]

Stop replying, go away from your pc and think about everything you said until now.

Think about your own definition of "game","fun", and "balance". Spend 10 minutes to draw the line between "addiction" and "entertainment", and add another 10 minutes to figure out what you consider "original", and what is a rehashed material. Try thinking about the concept of "accessibility to the content" and the issue it creates.


Your reply always consist of "no" with a "it's was super fun/perfect/balanced" rebutal, and it's getting old. Not everything was bad about FFXI, but to go as far as defend weakness everyone had issue with...you should think twice about it.

[Hyan]

Psychological tendencies in response to effort:reward wasn't something that was invented with XI. Shit jobs in the real world have high turnover rates. People mainly do them because they have to for one reason or another, but that doesn't make the job any better. Hell, CBS has been airing some undercover boss show lately where a company CEO goes back to work in the trenches incognito. Sure, it might make good TV to point out shit conditions that had 'em scratching their head, but they also turned around and did some things about it. Little grievances like these will almost always get lost in the chain of command unless something blows up and hits the news (Hey, does this sound familiar?!) because people never really get to interact with the big boss since the little boss might lose his job if it doesn't seem like he's performing like a good little corporate drone.

At this point, apparently the only good MMO is an MMO Hyan likes, majority opinion be damned. Arguing otherwise is like listening to BRP prattle about how RPGs aren't RPGs because the world has rules and the story material is finite. Nevermind the hypocrisy of demanding innovation on limited budgets while ignoring the bare minimum requirements of what must be done that separates an MMO from a game with online capabilities while still being faithful to the genre.

That is the worst analogy I've heard in a long time. People work in those jobs because they need the Money. If there wasn't such an incentive or an alternate way, they wouldn't do it.

But you're not Forced to play an MMO. You're not forced to play any game. You don't Need to play something to get by in your life. But you Need money to get by in life. Those people have no choice; you do.

At this point, both of you are twisting my words to make you look better, and it's getting tiring to say at least. My preferred MMO is Not the only good MMO, but it's not A BAD NOR "INFERIOR" MMO either. You're the ones belittling MY opinion because in your world there's no way I could enjoy the things I do without having some fucking stockholm syndrome. I'm not the one belittling YOUR preferences- I'm just saying that they're not the same as mine. You guys like the way Blizzard makes MMO's, and I respect that.

"The bare minimum requirements" are not the same for everyone. If you can't accept nor respect that, you're one narrow minded person. And before the oh so obvious "no, u" response, I accept and respect what other people think as the minimum requirements, or what they want from a game. I am only defending my preferences.

Your reply always consist of "no" with a "it's was super fun/perfect/balanced" rebutal, and it's getting old. Not everything was bad about FFXI, but to go as far as defend weakness everyone had issue with...you should think twice about it.

What can I say? When your reply always consists of "no" with "it was shit/unbalanced/glitchy" rebutal, you're no better. It's almost like now is the time to drop this hell of a debate, because nothing we'll say to each other will change anything. Also because you pull out numbers out of your ass, this debate will never end. "Everyone" did not have an issue, even if this whole forum did is not the majority of players- and in the end, most players have issues with nerfs, had it balanced the game or not.

[Kaylia]

I point things 99% of the playerbase agree should/shouldn't be there, thing that even the developper fixed eventually...and you defend them with "no". Why FFXI development team who can do no wrong fixed these problems after 6 months if they were not problems? Why couldnt they fix it after 2 weeks when the problem was obvious.



Why is there a 6 months wait before the issue is fixed (make that 3 years for some of them)? You told me that communications with the customer are useless earlier, are you telling we had to wait 6 months because they couldn't do otherwise?

[Hyan]

"99% of the playerbase"... you just keep doing it.

You know, the dev team can make features better even if there are no problems with them. And if there is no problem, it's not something that should or need be done ASAP, but when you've got time to do so. Priorities are important. Do they work on getting out that Nyzul Isle in time for the next update, or do they tweak existing, yet working feature first even if it can wait?

Lots of problems, little resources. Problems pile on top of each other, especially when new content is pumped out every update as well. Fix 4 problems, you just created 5 more with the recent update. And the more resources or time it takes to fix something, it's hard to prioritize when you could get rid of 2 lesser problems in a similar timeframe. Which problems are fixed, which will stay around? You can disagree with their decisions, but to each people they are different. You may think something didn't need fixing, some other guy is relieved that it finally got fixed. There's not a really "right" thing to fix most of the time. Sometimes, yes, regardless of resources. But not always.

[Kaylia]

99% = "I've never seen anyone but you" if you care that much about the meaning of the number.


And if you think that a new events where most of the best gears is found is ignored by everyone but an handful of people isn't broken....think again.

[arus2001]

Replace "money" with "random item" and "shit job" with "said item doesn't come from any other source" and you get situations where people begin to ask themselves if getting said item is worth the hassle (player politics included), essentially creating a turnover rate (or outright avoidance) for that specific event or even the game itself in a cumulative sense. Why is it that Garrison, Eco-Warrior, Conquest fights, and numerous BCs/ENMs are never done, but are allegedly okay because they haven't been touched in years? Player value may be a factor, as is the shit design of sidegrades we've had with XI, but I dunno, maybe I'm wrong in thinking from the dev perspective that I want to people to do everything I produce and not just a fraction of it. Just sayin'. Unused content = wasted dev time = wasted money. Player feedback can remedy this, and it's best if addressed soon after release and not years later, as by then the damage has been done.

[Hyan]

99% = "I've never seen anyone but you" if you care that much about the meaning of the number.


And if you think that a new events where most of the best gears is found is ignored by everyone but an handful of people isn't broken....think again.

Numbers aren't that important, but the accuracy of your statements is, if we want to move forward with this.

"You've never seen anyone but me" =/= "99% of the playerbase"

Maybe the problem is that you haven't really looked. Interact with people that share the same interests as you, et cetera.

One characteristic of XI's endgame is that stuff stacks up. If you're already doing million things, there's not really room for else if you're not willing to sacrifice other events. It was the case for many of my past LS members.. Just no more time for another event at that point. Especially when strategies weren't formed and everything was still quite unknown, it wasn't really worth it to start or join a group immediately. And even more so because the whole thing required pretty much a linkshell/static group, and it wasn't such a "pick up and play" event like Nyzul later. Had I still led a dynamis group at that time, it would have had to wait for me too.

Replace "money" with "random item" and "shit job" with "said item doesn't come from any other source" and you get situations where people begin to ask themselves if getting said item is worth the hassle (player politics included), essentially creating a turnover rate (or outright avoidance) for that specific event or even the game itself in a cumulative sense. Why is it that Garrison, Eco-Warrior, Conquest fights, and numerous BCs/ENMs are never done, but are allegedly okay because they haven't been touched in years? Player value may be a factor, as is the shit design of sidegrades we've had with XI, but I dunno, maybe I'm wrong in thinking from the dev perspective that I want to people to do everything I produce and not just a fraction of it. Just sayin'. Unused content = wasted dev time = wasted money. Player feedback can remedy this, and it's best if addressed soon after release and not years later, as by then the damage has been done.

Replacing money with random item makes no sense, because you're not forced to get said item to live/do something in-game. You can live without a random item, but you can't live without money.

Not every content is for everyone. There is always someone doing content you find shit or not worth it. Not all people are driven by equipment or rewards.

[Kaylia]

Another good one to see Hyan say "no, it's the player fault, not the game's fault".


Why can't I find people for WoTG Bastok Mission? I mean, literally, I can't find 2-3 NA to beat the freaking mission. I can't even drag people from the early mission, since none are interested.

Do you see any issue with this, or it's a normal difficulty?

[Kaylia]

Numbers aren't that important, but the accuracy of your statements is, if we want to move forward with this.

What is this semantic bullshit. My argument never revolved around these number, but the fact that a very large majority think this way.

One characteristic of XI's endgame is that stuff stacks up. If you're already doing million things, there's not really room for else if you're not willing to sacrifice other events. It was the case for many of my past LS members.. Just no more time for another event at that point. Especially when strategies weren't formed and everything was still quite unknown, it wasn't really worth it to start or join a group immediately. And even more so because the whole thing required pretty much a linkshell/static group, and it wasn't such a "pick up and play" event like Nyzul later. Had I still led a dynamis group at that time, it would have had to wait for me too.

Do you think I don't know? I was always leading people when there was new contents, because I wanted to experience it first. I made/joined 3 CoP mission static to make sure I was going to reach sea first, I was hunting sea NM to discover them before everyone, I made the first NA salvage static on my server afaik and I've always been up to date with everything ( or almost)...etc


I know exactly how hard it is to get people to do something when the events are unrewarding or when the requirement are too specific.

[Hyan]

If it doesn't make sense to you, please explain why.

I am also getting used to you saying "no, it's the devs fault, not the games nor the players". Pot, meet the kettle...

Alright, let's change the direction of topic once again. Yes, there's an issue.

What is this semantic bullshit. My argument never revolved around these number, but the fact that a very large majority think this way.

Yes, that's the problem. Your argument revolves around the "FACT" that your randomly generated numbers represent the playerbase.

We are getting closer to the truth though. Now it's only very large majority... where are you getting this one? "All my friends and the people I've met that I happen to remember first hand share the similar mindset, ain't that enough proof?" O=

Would you believe me?

Do you think I don't know? I was always leading people when there was new contents, because I wanted to experience it first. I made/joined 3 CoP mission static to make sure I was going to reach sea first, I was hunting sea NM to discover them before everyone, I made the first NA salvage static on my server afaik and I've always been up to date with everything ( or almost)...etc


I know exactly how hard it is to get people to do something when the events are unrewarding or when the requirement are too specific.

No wonder you're upset with the game. The content in the updates is never enough to last 'till the next update, since that would be too much work for too little gain. You're always the first to do everything, so of course the content won't be enough for you. You've already catched up.

Everyone catches up at some point, SE can only delay the inevitable. But generally, as long as you haven't catched up, there's always something to do. And the longer it takes to get there, the longer you'll enjoy the game. Once there's no content, it gets boring.

[Kaylia]

The developper make the game for the customer, the customer don't have to adapt themselves to the content, the content should be made for them.


And you didn't answer the question. Why is it so hard to get people to do new missions?

[Hyan]

Why does anyone have to adapt to anything?

Because most people don't appreciate the story for the reward, and when they're addicted, only thing keeping them around are the endless rewards that feed their addiction, not the game being fun- because for addicts, it's no longer that anyway. But hey, if theres a great reward coming up, everything is suddenly more fun.