They Snooze Less, But They Don't Lose

[Tristam]

Misleading...study seems like it's assuming 8~ hours is normal or required, so entire basis of the research is flawed from the start. It's taking an assumption as a fact to prove something else.

A person can survive fine with no ill effects getting just 1.5 hours of sleep twice a day. There isn't some magical sleep number you must get every-day, your body simply must experience a single REM phase every so often. Demonstrated by people who haven't slept in 20-30+ years and survive with no ill effects on Microsleep(they've trained themselves to enter instant REM, like a controlled form of Narcolepsy).

They didn't start from the assumption you claim, their actual report states that the problem they're interested in is that there is such a wide variation in what constitutes "normal" sleep for different people. Despite the fact that a person can possibly subsist on microsleep like you claim, does not make that normal or routine and probably not beneficial for most of us. All you're providing is a contradictory anecdote to counter the assumption that they did not in fact make.

For most people, what constitutes normal sleep is highly variable from person to person, but what makes it variable? Is it 100% environmental? Or is there a genetic component? And if there is a genetic component, then what are the gene(s) or pathway(s) responsible. THAT is what the article addresses.

Further, if there is a genetic component, does it define a minimum sleep requirement, for REM or otherwise. The article does not answer this question, but addresses it further as an area for study. Who is to say what the genetic differences are, if any, in a person that can subsist on 1.5 hours of microsleep twice per day? I don't think it's fair to say that everyone can do that, and if you're saying that I'd be interested to read the literature as I can't find much on pubmed about it, except that people who microsleep frequently complain of tiredness and are at increased risk for general sleep disorders? There is ample research backing up what you say, that sleep "intensity" is more important than sleep duration, but what enables a person to have more intense sleep or what factors influence the "training" I can't find much on, so until you say otherwise I'll assume they're unknown. But this unknown component is something that the paper addresses. For some "long-night" sleepers it is known that production levels of things like melatonin are elevated for longer periods of time, but apart from light therapy I don't really know how you can "train" those sorts of responses.

What is known is that there are circadian rhythms that control biological cycles with day/night. These cycles do have a genetic component, and one of the clues that makes the gene in question in the study interesting is that it is a gene that is associated with circadian cycles (fun fact, the related homolog in fruit flies is called clockwork orange). Furthermore it's a transcription factor, probably responsible for the relative production levels of a number of different proteins. The identification of this genetic effect, the authors again state, is intended as a *starting point* to address these issues. It's not presented as an answer by any means, although the science whizzes at CNN (sarcasm) seem to have screwed it up again.

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm not, there are parts of the CNN article that bother the hell out of me because they really jump way too far about what the data itself can say. I just don't want people to be dismissive about what really is a good body of work that addresses an interesting question.

edit: if anyone's on a university sort of connection, there's a perspectives article by Hor and Tafti about this work that's prolly pubmed searchable by now from the same journal issue. I borrowed alot of info from that article.

editx2: the actual article addresses REM sleep, it's decreased in the mutant mice and the overall REM sleep patterns are "fragmented". They also talk about things like REM theta power that I don't understand at all...so.....?

[Plow]

They also talk about things like REM theta power that I don't understand at all...so.....?

Theta rhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[The Stig]

I get about 4 hours per night, but I play catch up on weekends. And I'm not a Fortune 500 CEO, either.

Something seems off about the title, by the way.

As the saying goes, "you snooze, you lose."

So... you snooze less, but you don't lose. Lose what... less? More?

"You snooze less, you lose less" would be more expected. Saying "snooze less, but you don't lose" seems counter-intuitive, because if snoozing makes you lose, snoozing less would be obviously be plainly better, there'd be no need for clarification that you don't lose, and saying "but" in there implies snoozing less would have otherwise made you lose more. Because it's easy to see that by snoozing less, you'd lose less. If indeed snoozing makes you lose. Or "snooze more, but you don't lose" would be fine, although not what the study was getting at.

On the other hand, if snoozing at all for any length of time made you lose, then "snooze less, and you don't lose" would be better.

Back pedalling to the above, I always see anything over 8-9 hours of sleep, however nice it is, makes the day feel wasted (and if you wake up at 1-3pm), especially if you've got work the day after (and thus, having to sleep early). Also, it feels more down/depressing after a while. When I was job hunting I fell briefly into this stump, and with people calling me early to find out more about me/arrange interviews I realised it's better to get up early and be fresh when taking phone calls, rather than having my phone wake me up and me talking on the phone somewhat not 100%.

[Keria]

I wish I could get by on 4-5 hours of sleep >< I feel like absolute death on anything less than 8 and usually end up needing 10-12 after an active day. SO much time wasted

[Zalius]

genetic mutations...?



it has begun

[Drex]

4-5 hours a day? Slackers. Can sleep 2 hours a day using the polyphasic cycle of 20 minute naps every 4 hours!

[Zalius]

i slept for 21 hours once on some fucked up shit from a doctor, woke up and felt god awful for like 5 hours even after having like a good half gallon of water