Cataclysm Thread (New Expansion)

[Guitarman]

There are a few classes that can wear down a healer, but none are able to outright solo one on their own.

Hello. I'm a DK. Perhaps you've heard of us? I've killed my plenty of priests and shammy 1 on 1, and cut down a forest of trees. It's not easy, (especially druids) but it's very doable.

strangulate/ghoul stun off the bat, mind freeze after it wears and they try to heal, then finish them off. My diseases counteract a heavy portion of a druid's dots. Add war stomp into the stun list, but that's just a perk of being a sexy bitch tauren.

[Korietsu]

Also giving rogues honorable mention as solo healer killers. And warlocks.

[Dezzimal]

Do you think it was a problem that the healer couldn't kill the mage either? Glyphed 2min evocate, mana shield and mage armor allowed the mage to survive any damage that the priest was throwing out.

Your concept of what you want WoW PvP to be is centered entirely around removing the intended weaknesses of your particular class. I'm not saying the PvP system is perfect if you're playing in 3v3 or 5v5 arena, in fact it is far from it, but you cannot say that your class is tuned poorly in pvp and cite a 1v1 situation as an example of such.

[Guitarman]

^them too. absolutely. Was just speaking from personal experience. Rogue, cmon like i gotta even say it. Stun-lock anyone? And there's little you can do against a good lock when he can 2-shot a plate wearer.

[Gulkeeva]

I dunno.. I've seen some well geared druids.. especially one with a legendary mace, basically get the flag... drag 5-8 people in eots..., spamming fear stuns banish's on him.. and survive to cap.

I was like... yup thats game over

[Dezzimal]

Also giving rogues honorable mention as solo healer killers. And warlocks.

Rogues do not kill a paladin/druid/priest of equal skill level before they run out of mana, warlocks can get a lucky gib but they're essentially in the same boat as mages, same for death knights despite what was said below.

Hello. I'm a DK. Perhaps you've heard of us? I've killed my plenty of priests and shammy 1 on 1, and cut down a forest of trees. It's not easy, (especially druids) but it's very doable.

Anything you say is severely in question after the shitfit you threw in this very thread about bibi's credibility as a journalist. Some classes have an easier time locking down and sticking to healers, this is the nature of melee being able to do their dps while on the move. Arena is a team-based game though so if you're "soloing" a healer, his teamates aren't doing their job of keeping you from doing as such.

[Korietsu]

Do you think it was a problem that the healer couldn't kill the mage either? Glyphed 2min evocate, mana shield and mage armor allowed the mage to survive any damage that the priest was throwing out.

Your concept of what you want WoW PvP to be is centered entirely around removing the intended weaknesses of your particular class. I'm not saying the PvP system is perfect if you're playing in 3v3 or 5v5 arena, in fact it is far from it, but you cannot say that your class is tuned poorly in pvp and cite a 1v1 situation as an example of such.

The healer never made a real effort to kill Orange. Just sat there and healed through the damage, and threw up the occasional SWP/burn. Also, rogues don't have to OOM a healer to kill them. They have enough control and are able to put enough pressure on healers through the use of poisons to not require an OOM for a kill. Warlocks are the same, they've always got guaranteed damage ticking regardless of LoS. As well as a 60 yard mobile counterspell.

The best part about this, its been like this since S2. Healers don't have to work nearly as hard to get a kill on a mage because of the shitty ass mana pools that we have in our required gear and spec, as well as the crappy damage output. It's a balance concern. Not so much a I WANT MY PONY concern.

[Guitarman]

Anything you say is severely in question after the shitfit you threw in this very thread about bibi's credibility as a journalist. Some classes have an easier time locking down and sticking to healers, this is the nature of melee being able to do their dps while on the move. Arena is a team-based game though so if you're "soloing" a healer, his teamates aren't doing their job of keeping you from doing as such.

Riiight. calling boub out on highly questionable lore changes before theyre officially announced makes me less than credible. Just how salty IS boubille's nuts? You really need to drop the old news. Someone with a twilight avatar shouldn't throw stones.

And no, there's not alot someone can go against a DK if he knows what he's doing. A healer's pally friend (which it is in pvp 90% of the time, or so it seems) can't stun when icebound fortitude is up. And if a DK can't kill a healer and switch targets before that wears off, they need to go and relearn their fucking job.

Besides, i was responding to:

If the healer makes a significant mistake you can put them down, but if they're playing it correctly you shouldn't be able to kill them without help.

1vs1. Don't change the subject into arena.

I dunno.. I've seen some well geared druids.. especially one with a legendary mace, basically get the flag... drag 5-8 people in eots..., spamming fear stuns banish's on him.. and survive to cap.

I was like... yup thats game over

Oh i completely agree, a great druid is near impossible. Someone running around with Val'nyr isnt likely to be a mediocre player though, so they're definitely in the minority. I was simply talking in general.

[Dezzimal]

The healer never made a real effort to kill Orange. Just sat there and healed through the damage, and threw up the occasional SWP/burn.

Because orange was putting out enough pressure to not allow the priest to expend much of his mana on offense.

Also, rogues don't have to OOM a healer to kill them. They have enough control and are able to put enough pressure on healers through the use of poisons to not require an OOM for a kill.

Given a rogue of equal skill level in a 1v1 situation the healer is should be going OOM before dieing, however the rogue has a few more tools to capitalize on a healer mistake combined with an easier time putting sustained damage into a healer. Peeling a rogue can be difficult, but once his cooldowns are spent it becomes pretty trivial to keep a rogue completely separated from his desired target depending on what class is doing the peeling.

It's a balance concern. Not so much a I WANT MY PONY concern.

You're not using any group-based examples of why mage is underpowered. The balance may not be fine, but you're not a paraplegic in arena pvp because you can't solo a healer. Mages are not the main damage dealers in many of their major arena comps, they bring control and opportunistic burst while being a difficult target for melee to focus. There are mechanics at work in arena that some people don't want to begin to comprehend because it might make their whining sound irrational.

[Lexa]

Guess I should have said non fail FFXI players. Or atleast ones with half a brain.

Subjective interest in storyline or lore is completely related to a person's ability to play a game.

Trufax.

[Ezek]

Hello. I'm a DK. Perhaps you've heard of us? I've killed my plenty of priests and shammy 1 on 1, and cut down a forest of trees. It's not easy, (especially druids) but it's very doable.

strangulate/ghoul stun off the bat, mind freeze after it wears and they try to heal, then finish them off. My diseases counteract a heavy portion of a druid's dots. Add war stomp into the stun list, but that's just a perk of being a sexy bitch tauren.

So, I'm currently a Disc Priest for arena purposes - you're either fighting vastly undergeared healers or just flat out bad healers. Healers that are sitting at around 1k resilience (as they should be) can tank the Strangulate and probably the Gnaw too. I've only run into a few DK post patch that can kill me through Strangulate/Gnaw, and every time it's when they open on me with a full RP bar and dump Death Coils on me with SoTVH. Actually, thinking back on it now I'm pretty sure this only happened once, and it was in Isle with keep cannons shooting at me for 4k lol ~

The thing is though, any smart healer can simply trinket the stun in a 1v1 situation and top themselves off if they find themselves dipping too low. Disc Priests can sit on their trinket and just Pain Suppression through the stun. With that being said, good luck killing any restoration Shaman with a brain as a DK. In any case, the game isn't really built for 1v1 - gogo 3v3 brackets.

[Arvin]

As a resto shaman with about 1,000 resilience flat and 2650 healing in my full furious gear I can safely say that I get shit on by most things that can sit on me. I can't outheal mortal strike and I most definitely can't outheal a rogues damage.

However, the one change they made to ghost wolf makes it easy to kite rogues with a simple frost shock/earthbind and a quick wolf out, ignoring crippling poison. But smart rogues can get around this by sprinting or just stunlocking the shit out of me.

It's probably the class itself, but I can't juke out a lot of dps because their damage output is too much.

Here's a rundown:

Classes that will shit on my chest:

Rogue, Warrior

Classes that are jokes to heal through:

Retadin, Warlock, Mage

Class that seriously wastes time trying to kill me:

Deathknight.

[Dezzimal]

I know resto shamans are in a bit tighter spot than most pvp healers right now, which is why I didn't list them off specifically. I'm not sure what the thought process was with unrelenting assault, and it'll definitely go down in history with mace stun as one of the worst ideas ever.

[Day]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/image...47228/340x.jpg

[Korietsu]

You're not using any group-based examples of why mage is underpowered. The balance may not be fine, but you're not a paraplegic in arena pvp because you can't solo a healer. Mages are not the main damage dealers in many of their major arena comps, they bring control and opportunistic burst while being a difficult target for melee to focus. There are mechanics at work in arena that some people don't want to begin to comprehend because it might make their whining sound irrational.

The whole, my partners are dead, I can't do anything is the group based example. Its either, we burst down our target in the first 30 seconds of the match with our partner, or lose. There's no more skill, or out playing someone with the class changes and what's been introduced into this expansions arena experience.

Mages have no effective ways with dealing with healers in and out of group combat. We don't have the resources or pressure anymore to duke it out with a healer even with the 20% permafrost MS. The 20% just covered the resilience change.

Its either, go with arcane and a gimmick burst spec that wins the fight in the first 30 seconds, or immediately lose, or go frost and play a fight that has little offensive pressure and you're juggling targets and require flawless play for a kill and hope to god that your partner doesn't die after you gib the enemy's partner(s) or being forced to play with zero mana, zero CD's left, and playing sheep tag to get in single ticks of drinking and hoping to god you don't fuck up and lose on the smallest mistake (like blinking and it not going off because of a pebble you can't see).

There's no middle ground. Yes, its a tough class to play, yes its even tougher to play at a high level. But when average joe healer can just tank your damage without thinking, there's a problem. At least back in bc when I could downrank my spells, I had a chance at conserving mana and defending myself efficiently and playing efficiently to put out pressure and force a mistake or two to capitalize on. It just doesn't work like that anymore, and a representation has been exactly what it was in BC. Terrible.

[Inactive]

@Korietsu: What comp are you running specifically? Because you keep bringing up how your partners die and you are left in a 1v1 situation in arena when 90% of the time you are the one who should be controlling the other team keeping your partner alive. If you have that much trouble killing a healer, CC them.

As for rogues, the whole "i get stunlocked to death" argument always got me. Rogues have 2 stuns they can DPS through, 1 of which is on a 20 sec CD and the other requires stealth. If you are in arena (I don't count BG's because they are retarded) and you either don't trinket the first kidney shot to give yourself distance and force some CDs (situational), or you can't live through a solo rogue, and or your partner does nothing to peel. You're doing it wrong.

[Arvin]

Using your trinket on the first kidney is absolutely wrong if you're playing a smart rogue.

If he were to just switch off and go to your partner, he can open up with a full duration blind and that right there is why you don't trinket it.

[Inactive]

From the sounds of it though, everyone is getting stunlocked to death, or are we now seeing that's really not the case?

[Day]

I want to get in on this convo because I too struggle with my mage outside of BG's where I can hide in bushes. Not a lot of input other than if you don't catch a healer in a pet freeze > deep freeze > imp cs combo then they aren't going down, and they will most likely live anyways if 1 spell doesn't crit.

I'm willing to bet his partner(s) is/are casters? My cloth team has a very difficult time with good rogues because they dump a ton of dmg, then cloak before they get piggied.

[Gulkeeva]

From the sounds of it though, everyone is getting stunlocked to death, or are we now seeing that's really not the case?

its pretty much some form of "stun to death" rape which is gay.

I also find it kind of gay you need to kill a holy/prot and ret pallies 2-3 times if they got all their cooldowns.

Although its nowhere as bad as trying to kill a shapeshift/spam heal tree that can constantly run out of range/get out of cc and is basically immune to any spelllock/spell interrupt cept a silence (but hey, they can live through 3-4 people in a BG if they got 22,000+ hp 800+ resilience!) Especially against other pvp geared people. Since that gear does terrible damage.