Weapon Question for MNK in Salvage

[Fridell]

I would say it's a worth while temporary investment.

This, and it's worth keeping at all times if one have the gil support for it. However, I would take the N.Head if I was the OP, you get more out from that.

[Acturus]

I remember the early tests with Hades showing they parse slightly under Destroyers.

The +Enmity and +Subtle Blow on Hades are secondary to the fact that Destroyers "kill shit faster".

Hades are nice if the +Enmity will help balance out one MNK against the DoT of another on Salvage chariots, but even then, if something else can be upgraded to increase DoT to match one MNK against another (Brown Belt to Black, Merman's to Brutal, etc.), then that might be a better option instead of moving from Destroyers to Hades.

[pchan]

7% crit on BOTH hands blows a 3-4% hit rate increase out of the water. And to be clear, as with anything else in this game, "blows out of the water" is a loose term).

I'm not sure why you mention "BOTH" hands but first, destroyers are 6% critical hit not 7. Usually your critical hits do a bit less than 2x your average melee punch therefore it makes your crit rate go from 10% to 16% which is about 5% increase .. for melee damage only, which generally represents 60% of your damage, so the overall increase is 60% x 5%=3%, so No, 6% crit doesn't "blows out of the water" 3% hit rate.

[Cream Soda]

Again Its much closer to 65-70% DoT/30-35% WS dmg.

40% ws dmg isn't nearly as common

And while the crits only apply to the DoT portion, the acc on hades only applies to the 60% of the time focus is down.

[Neosutra]

I'd like to see where you get 6% crit hit actually only being a 5% total crit rate increase and where you get only a 5% boost in damage from those crits.

I realize you are doing the math in a way to justify using your hades for everything, but don't be silly.

Do you have parses of with and without destroyers that show crit rate between both and an average crit of less than double your average melée hits? And I mean multiple long parses, not "well this one time".

Not to mention the uselessness of the acc during focus, feint, and on at least half of the too weak salvage mobs. Add in any mnk that uses pizza and destroyers wipes the floor with hades.

Edit: Cream Soda already said it, but if you take away 2/5ths of the time that focus is up and 1/5th of the time that feint is on, you only get to apply that 3% hit rate boost 2/5ths of the time, which makes them even more superior.

[Yugl]

I'd like to see where you get 6% crit hit actually only being a 5% total crit rate increase and where you get only a 5% boost in damage from those crits.

I realize you are doing the math in a way to justify using your hades for everything, but don't be silly.

Do you have parses of with and without destroyers that show crit rate between both and an average crit of less than double your average melée hits? And I mean multiple long parses, not "well this one time".

I think he got the 5% increase Crit Rate from the following logic:

-Assume 100 Attacks
-You cannot critical hit a critical hit
-Merits warrant 4% Critical hit rate (All of this doesn't even account for DEX critical hit rate)

Before Destroyers: (4/100) Attacks critical hit. This means there's 96 attacks that can critical hit (Since you cannot critical hit a hit you already critical hit). 6% of 96 is roughly 5.76 and I think he floored the value.

[Neosutra]

Since when do crit hits score like that? Wouldn't it instead add all of your crit hit %s together and base your percentage on that?

[PeaceNLove]

You only "cap" CE after 10k damage, that's assuming you don't take damage, which is unlikely, hence why people discuss "tanking".

So yeah, 1-2 minutes into a 50k HP chariot fight that takes about 7min to kill, especially if you're burning some 2hrs at the start. Your group doesn't even bring a BRD though so it reasonably will take longer. Point is, on bosses I get outparsed by the Bravura WAR/NIN cotank in my group when I'm MNK/NIN, yet I noticeably take more of the hits solely because my attack rounds come out faster. Your line about the mob "seeing" someone as doing more damage, and therefore mainly attacking him is moot past a certain point early on in the fight.

[Yugl]

Since when do crit hits score like that? Wouldn't it instead add all of your crit hit %s together and base your percentage on that?

Total critical hits = Add them up. When looking at increase of critical hits rates, you want to look at your old value v new value. At least this is how I understand it from FM's post in the DA Diminishing returns thread (DA follows this same formula when stating increase % in DA since you cannot DA on a DA).

[pchan]

Again Its much closer to 65-70% DoT/30-35% WS dmg.

40% ws dmg isn't nearly as common

And while the crits only apply to the DoT portion, the acc on hades only applies to the 60% of the time focus is down.

40% is common, check the above parse; it's on a salvage boss, a mob with relatively high def and eva. The argument about focus indeed makes hades sainti a bit weaker (but again only on melee hits while focus is up) but aboviously during focus you can adapt your gear and remove your toreador cuchulain or ancient torque that are indeed beeing useless. If you get 90% average (as on one of the parse, because I used meat) it means that accuracy outside foucs is ~83%, with hades sainti, therefore ~80% with destroyers and you see that 6 accuracy from focus "only" is wasted which can easily be countered by dropping your toreador. Of course this argument only works with meat. The benefit of hades sainti strongly depends on what you use in both ring slots, ear slots, neck and back, during and outside focus. You posted yourself a 84% accuracy with destroyers, outside focus, which I assume you achieve with double toreadors at least. With HS you would have ~87%, but during focus you can drop accuracy on both rings (14 total) which means you have 80% acc + focus=95% and nothing is being wasted.

I'd like to see where you get 6% crit hit actually only being a 5% total crit rate increase and where you get only a 5% boost in damage from those crits.

I realize you are doing the math in a way to justify using your hades for everything, but don't be silly.

If you actually parsed yourself you would notice the same thing. Check the above parse, two full usu monks, that's not super high attack to say the least. Personnally, My average crit hit=132.13 while average 67.37 on mele hit, which means crit do on average 1.96 times your average hit.

As for the "6%" that turned into "5%" ... well you do know that you can crit without destroyers, right ? Assume that my average punch does x damage and that my crit does 2x damage ; If i have a base 10% critical hit rate (that's what happens most of the time), this means that 100 punchs do 90x+10*2x=110x. If I have 16% crit rate, they do 116x. 116/110 is approximately 5% increase.

Do you have parses of with and without destroyers that show crit rate between both and an average crit of less than double your average melée hits?

Don't need, you just need to know the info on the defense of the target to determine this. I can show you with math that the "crit do ~2x your normal hit" is true for all MMJ and colibri if you want. It's probably generally true for a mob with a def between 300 and 350 prior to dia II.

Not to mention the uselessness of the acc during focus, feint, and on at least half of the too weak salvage mobs. Add in any mnk that uses pizza and destroyers wipes the floor with hades.

Read above, if you don't swap gear during focus your are not clever. You can afford to drop Ancient torque, double torreador, hollow, cuchulain which is 35 accuracy ... Oh and it's pretty clear that the discussion is boss only.

[Cream Soda]

Just picking one of my random parses, my Melee average was 88.30 and my crit average was 154.49

Let's say I do 1000 landed attacks, 10% crit rate

900 reg hits
100 crits

(900 x 88.30) = 79470 +
(100 x 154.49) = 15449
= 94919 DMG

Now lets up crit rate by 6%

840 melee attacks
160 crits
(840 x 88.3) = 74172 +
(154.49 x 160) = 24718.4

= 98890.4 dmg

98890.4/94919 = 4.18% increase

I call it 70/30 you call it 60/40, we'll meet in the middle

4.18 x .65 = 2.717% increase

Assuming 80% hitrate, 3.5% hitrate from hades will add
3.5/80 = 4.375% increase, cut down by the 60/40 ratio of focus/no focus
.6 x 4.375 = 2.625% increase.

Keeping in mind that on that particular parse, my crits were deteriorated by having double minuet and chaos roll (higher attack = less gained from crits).

Looking at your ZR parse,
44.37 melee average for MD and 86.60 crit average. We'll look at 9 vs 15% crit rate

We'll look at 100 landed attacks

100 attacks, 9% crit rate, 91 hits 9 crits
100 attacks, 15% crit rate 85 hits 15 crits

91 (44.37) = 4037.67
9 (86.60) = 779.4
= 4817.07

85(44.37) = 3771.45
15(86.6) = 1299
= 5070.45

5070.45/4817.07 = 5.26% increase x .65 = 3.419% increase
Hades assuming 80% acc (again 80 not hard to hit on chariots and if lower than that should be using a diff food anyways)
= 2.625%

And this is assuming hades are at lowest acceptable lv of acc before swapping food choices. Anything lower use diff food, anything higher gain from the acc is gonna be less.

Edit:
60/40 is not common

I looked over all the parses i have saved form the past its closer to 65/35

[pchan]

Assuming 80% hitrate, 3.5% hitrate from hades will add
3.5/80 = 4.375% increase, cut down by the 60/40 ratio of focus/no focus
.6 x 4.375 = 2.625% increase.

Nope. Assuming 80% hitrate with destroyers outside focus, it indeed becomes a 3.5/80=4.375% increase outside focus, and during focus, drop your toreador and it's still 4.375%. Actually, no, it's more since you replaced toreador by a str ring or an attack ring, which you can't do in this case with destroyers.

[Neosutra]

The difference really comes down to Destroyers adding 6% crit rate bonus ALL THE TIME versus Hades adding 3% hit rate increase 2/5ths of the time, and only when you are fighting salvage mobs that arent lower evasion (depends on floor and zone).

And if you are suggesting to swap out rings/earrings during focus up, nothing you can swap out will match 6% crit rate increase. Not your str rings, nothing.

You keep reworking the math to justify your use of hades and str rings and you keep looking worse every time Pchan.

[Cream Soda]

And again that's absolute min. The increase will will be less w/ higher acc. Seeing of the 3 chariots only one will be at about 80% acc w/ my current gear (had less acc gear back then)

[Onorgul]

You guys take this way too seriously. In the debate about things that affect Salvage performance, the choice of Monk weapon is negligible.

[Silverflame]

Thank you everyone for your posts and opinions. I'm going to go ahead and do what some people suggested and just get Nhead first, along with other gear I need before I go into this. My MNK gear is decent so I'll just use my good old trusty Destroyers, they've never failed me.

[pchan]

The difference really comes down to Destroyers adding 6% crit rate bonus ALL THE TIME versus Hades adding 3% hit rate increase 2/5ths of the time, and only when you are fighting salvage mobs that arent lower evasion (depends on floor and zone).

And if you are suggesting to swap out rings/earrings during focus up, nothing you can swap out will match 6% crit rate increase. Not your str rings, nothing.

You keep reworking the math to justify your use of hades and str rings and you keep looking worse every time Pchan.

Did you even read the thread ? 6% crit is only for your melee damage ..

[Neosutra]

Yes.. thank you captain obvious.

[Yugl]

Did you even read the thread ? 6% crit is only for your melee damage ..

What about Chi blast?

[Killo]

Thank you everyone for your posts and opinions. I'm going to go ahead and do what some people suggested and just get Nhead first, along with other gear I need before I go into this. My MNK gear is decent so I'll just use my good old trusty Destroyers, they've never failed me.

Gl with that.