Weapon Question for MNK in Salvage

[chiyio]

About multi hit WS's feeding more TP, it was stated in the patch notes when multihit TP returns were modified that only the first hit (or first and second in the case of dual wield) would generate TP to the mob, and any extra hits dont. Therefor Asuran and Ascetics both give the same amount of TP.

[mdkuser]

everyone posted their opinion on the subject, I'll post mine.

Keep in mind that the best set up for salvage bosses is pizza + destroyer, we all aggree with that. Now I think this debate is about when you cannot use pizza on bosses ( if you don't have the Lieutenant's sash mainly), and have to use meat.

The fact is that destroyer's crits only apply to melee damage, while hades sainti's 7 acc wil apply uniformly on melee and WS.

People said that HS's 7acc were wasted outside focus, which I strongly dissagree with. You need to realize that when you use HS or destroyers, your other gear slots can be changed too, not only the weapon slot.

For example, you can use destroyer+ A.torque ( meat build) and Hades Sainti + Faith torque. So its a competition between 7 attack ( and possibly 1 base dmg and some acc) and 6% crits.

You could also use destroyer + ulthalam+toreador ( still in a meat build) versus Hades sainti +ulthalam+(rajas or toreador) wether focus is up or not. And now its a competition between 6% crits vs rajas.

So the answer is certainly not as easy as it seems. If HS's 7 acc are wasted during focus, it means you weren't clever about your focus gear, if you have any, and then destroyer certainly wins. If you use clever gear swaps during focus to remove the unneeded accuracy in other slots, then HS certainly wins.

You see, hades sainti is always 7 accuracy wether you have focus up or down, if you do those swaps... and during focus, you will get stats bonus ( faith torque, rajas etc). So yes, HS is better than destroyer in a meat set up on salvage bosses.

Now evryone needs to purchase a lieutenant's sash, because pizza is much much better than any meat builds on those bosses...

[Cream Soda]

You see, hades sainti is always 7 accuracy wether you have focus up or down, if you do those swaps... and during focus, you will get stats bonus ( faith torque, rajas etc). So yes, HS is better than destroyer in a meat set up on salvage bosses.

I'm going to have to disagree w/ your statement of always. It still depends on your hitrate. I'm not saying destroyers are ALWAYS better but I'm saying they are better more often than not.

Going back to my non focus parses

87%, 84%, and 76% hitrates.

ZR, if i'm gonna be cheap and not use pizza, def hades, no disagreement there.

87 and 84% hitrate, definitely not. You don't always benefit from the 7 acc.

Focus is 30 acc, 15% hitrate

87 + 15 = 102, of course we're capped at 95, but this means 14 acc overkill and on the other, 84 + 15 = 99%, 8 acc overkill.

A lot of these swaps are either

A) Going to be able to be made w/ either weapon, still capping acc
B) Going to put destroyers under cap, but low enough where you're still not benefiting from the full 7 acc.

Have to remember, those of us w/ full usu aren't going to be able to swap all this acc out the ass, limited to accessories.

[Konda]

- Hades do indeed more ws damage (7 500 vs 8000)
- destro monk doesn't counter


even though I didn't use pizza (my acc is shit, 86% vs 94% to destro monk), I keep up easily and even out damage him thanks to counter mainly.

...sorry, what?



If the destroyers mnk is at 94% acc, and you're at 86% there should be no reason he's doing less damage than you, unless he doesnt have a black belt or full usu.

@op: destroyers work fine. if you feel you need more acc on the bosses, use sushi with a more attack focused build.





(btw, I realise this is from the 1st page, but w/e)

[Cream Soda]

use pizza with

fify

[Konda]

started donig salv before pizza came out, so I used to meat for 1hr then swap for sushi for the boss.... Haven't rly broke the habbit, and I have enough acc to push 90% w/o focus with meat now >.>;

[pchan]

...sorry, what?



If the destroyers mnk is at 94% acc, and you're at 86% there should be no reason he's doing less damage than you, unless he doesnt have a black belt or full usu.

Try reading. If I'm the only one countering, it's because I do more damage. and have more enmity. Check the parse, and don't consider counter damage you'll see that we do about equal damage.

[pchan]

grr

[Neosutra]

If your mnk needs hades to keep hate, you have some bigger problems here.


And Mkduser, you said the exact same thing as Pchan, and we came to the exact same conclusions:

Nothing you swap out in your rings/neck slot will compare to 6% crit. This all comes down to trading 7 acc for 6 crit, no matter how you shake it. Rajas does not beat 6% crit, 7 attack from faith does not beat 6% crit, and if you start talking more than that you are losing a lot more than the 7 acc tradeoff from hades.

The damage isnt a comparison. Use hades if you want a bit more survivability for slight loss in DoT, but dont be an idiot and try and convince yourself you are doing "just as good DoT" as destroyers. You arent.

And news flash: A good mnk should be using faith/rajas/etc during focus anyways (or more importantly alternating between acc and attack based TP builds based on the situation). The weapon choice is irrelevant there and should be looked at independently to determine which is best (destroyers).

[pchan]

Nothing you swap out in your rings/neck slot will compare to 6% crit. This all comes down to trading 7 acc for 6 crit, no matter how you shake it. Rajas does not beat 6% crit, 7 attack from faith does not beat 6% crit, and if you start talking more than that you are losing a lot more than the 7 acc tradeoff from hades.

I think you didn't understand anything about the discussion we're having. Hades BEAT destroyers outside focus. Read what I said, I did say that hades is A BIT less efficient during focus, however what you and vegetto initially said were that Hades have ZERO contribution during focus, which is totally wrong.


As for the part where you pretend I said 5 str beats 6% crit. No. I didn't say that. Actually the first swap I would do would be cuchulain's > cerberus mantle for a neat 15 attack (at least ~4.5% increase at least) which would indeed beat 6% crit since they only apply to melee. It's called macro swap. For reference A torque > faith would be ~ 2% increase, toreador > str would be 2% increase, hollow mermain is also 2%. It doesn't beat 3% but it's close enough and you lose little damage. The damage you lose during focus, you gain it outside focus, and from counter.

[Neosutra]

If only you could swap in the attack back and rajas/faith w/o having hades on =/

Oh you can! Woops, your argument is worthless.

It's 7 acc vs 6 crit, and nothing else in this debate. Any of the other slots can be interchanged regardless of what weapon you are wearing.

And it was you that brought up the str rings in the last thread, not I.

[pchan]

If only you could swap in the attack back and rajas/faith w/o having hades on =/

Oh you can! Woops, your argument is worthless.

It's 7 acc vs 6 crit, and nothing else in this debate. Any of the other slots can be interchanged regardless of what weapon you are wearing.

And it was you that brought up the str rings in the last thread, not I.

Whatever you do hades has 7 more accuracy, which allows you one more gear swap than destroyers. This obviously won't happen if you are very close to accuracy cap, but for a salvage boss you are very far from that. Full usu is good, it's not enough to put you at cap even with focus.

[Neosutra]

And it still comes down to 7acc versus 6crit hit, not matter how you shake it.

You are deluding the argument with gear swap suggestions for other spots (which are swaps for less acc, when you arent capped on acc for chariots anyways).

Even when not capped on acc, destroyers beats hades (except on you where apparently half your damage comes from WS >.>). When you are capped on acc (focus up and during feint times), there is no spot that you can swap 7 acc out for anything that will beat 6 crit hit, and the best thing is you can STILL swap those spots out for attack/str pieces when you have destroyers equipped and remain capped or close to capped acc during focus, so your argument is moot.

[pchan]

Even when not capped on acc, destroyers beats hades (except on you where apparently half your damage

No.

[ringthree]

When Neo seems to be the voice of reason you have broken BG.

Good job guys.

My personal opinion is that some gear choices just get so close that we are to the point where other gear and randomness starts to play a factor.

Is there a difference between Destroyers and Hades? Probably, marginally. Can either win based purely on RNG differences? Probably. Do I know which one will win more often? Nope.

Does it matter if the boss still dies without complications? Neo would say yes, I would say no. In the end it's personal preference.

[Neosutra]

Im sure everyone here has had those few bosses that you killed with seconds remaining, or had that unlocked LBC that got off a lucky HomingMissile and causes some havoc and had to fight it down with every ounce of power you had.

This game is all about minimal upgrades and changes. 99% of the gear in this game wont matter if your goal is just "are we fundamentally capable of killing this mob". A purple belt mnk in scorpian harness and wagh h2h can kill a boss, but a full usu destroyers weilding BB mnk can do it faster and get past those "oshit" times when you dont have that extra minute to spare.

As for voice of reason: Im always reasonable , Im just not always nice about it.

[ringthree]

Im sure everyone here has had those few bosses that you killed with seconds remaining, or had that unlocked LBC that got off a lucky HomingMissile and causes some havoc and had to fight it down with every ounce of power you had.

This game is all about minimal upgrades and changes. 99% of the gear in this game wont matter if your goal is just "are we fundamentally capable of killing this mob". A purple belt mnk in scorpian harness and wagh h2h can kill a boss, but a full usu destroyers weilding BB mnk can do it faster and get past those "oshit" times when you dont have that extra minute to spare.

As for voice of reason: Im always reasonable , Im just not always nice about it.

Sure, sure, but we aren't talking about the difference between Noob McGimperson and Epical van der Multirelic. We are talking about the tiniest of differences between two very good weapons, and that difference might really be attributable, for the most part, to the RNG or other gear.

I am not saying that people shouldn't have this discussion, I actually love these kind of discussions. I am saying that people get way too worked about about things that are harder and harder to prove or even come up with a decent way to look at the differences. (Thus my joking comment about you being reasonable).

Obvious choices are obvious, subjective choices are subjective. I believe that the evidence presented places this decision well into the subjective area. Arguments can be made for both sides, and math, parses and other evidence can be submitted to support those sides. A good player will look at the evidence, analyze it and make a decision to best suit their needs.

A BG poster will look at the evidence, analyze it, then call anyone that doesn't agree with them a blazing fucktard.

(Full disclosure: I full-time Destroyers.) ^.^

[Neosutra]

TBH I said I use both, so I wouldnt call Pchan a blazing fucktard for disagreeing.

If I wasnt interested in finding out the best answer for myself, I wouldnt argue lol.

[ringthree]

TBH I said I use both, so I wouldnt call Pchan a blazing fucktard for disagreeing.

If I wasnt interested in finding out the best answer for myself, I wouldnt argue lol.

Oh, as an outside observer (I haven't looking into Hades with any enthusiasm honestly so I haven't done any testing of my own) I am definitely interested in the discussion.

So far, though, I haven't seen anything incontrovertible to lead me to believe I should sink the gil into Hades for now.

[Fridell]

If you have a NIN tanking setup it's worth it. I probably wouldn't have bought Hades if I didn't have NIN.