Weapon Question for MNK in Salvage

[ringthree]

If you have a NIN tanking setup it's worth it. I probably wouldn't have bought Hades if I didn't have NIN.

It's kind of sad that there is a hand-to-hand that NIN can use that are better for keeping hate than Katana.

[Fridell]

I wouldn't put it that way though, it's not universal.

[ringthree]

I wouldn't put it that way though, it's not universal.

Yeah, I should have just said "more enmity". Obviously hth isn't going to be as good as katana in some situations, but you would think SE would have added better enmity katanas by now.

[Fridell]

I completely agree with that. While we're at it, they should add one with Magic Damage Taken Down as well.

[Reiokyu]

Wow, three pages of arguing over hades vs destroyers on a salvage boss...full time destroyers here.

[stewie]

It's kind of sad that there is a hand-to-hand that NIN can use that are better for keeping hate than Katana.

Nagi!

[Kouu]

I favor Destroyers most of the time, save for the ZR boss fight... Just rock out with my cock out with Pizza. Mix/Match before I'm fully unlocked of visible slots. 5/5 Usu when I can wear it. I got my Hades Sainti from doing HNMs (which is equally doable if you do ZNMs, since Sarameya drops claws). They're nice to have, but I only ever use them against ZR boss because I don't like Discoid.

They don't make or break you. Go for the N.Head, get the sainti later if you feel like you need them. Pizza +1 is made of delicious 5,000G accuracy induced win-sauce.

[Motenten]

Taking one of my own parses from Bhaflau.

Avg melee hit: 52.74
Avg crit: 109.42
Crit rate: 15.79%

However that includes kicks. I could probably use the details tab and work out a proper differential, but I'm just going to fudge and say melee base is at 55 ((55 + 37 * 15%)/1.15) = 52.7), so +2 fStr. Given the numbers, I'm probably sitting at a 1.0 base cRatio.

Melee acc: 90.48 % (using pizza and destroyers)

Unfortunately that average has Focus weighted in. Once again I'll fudge and call it 88% base accuracy. (Taking a higher base to weight slightly against HS.)


1000 attack rounds

2100 punches (including Brutal)

150 kicks (compromising between my own 2 merits plus 12.5% base kick rate, and 5 merits with a 10% base kick rate; still not sure which base is correct)

Split it between Focus and non-Focus segments:

Focus: 840 punches, 60 kicks
non-Focus: 1260 punches, 90 kicks

Without accounting for any other gear swaps, damage is at:
base punch damage: 55
base punch crit: 110
base kick damage: 37
base kick crit: 74


Destroyers
----------

Connected hits:
Focus (95%): 798 punches, 57 kicks
non-Focus (88%): 1,108.8 punches, 79.2 kicks
Total: 1,906.8 punches, 136.2 kicks

Distribution of connected hits:
crit punches (16%): 305.088
crit kicks (10%): 13.62
non-crit punches: 1,601.712
non-crit kicks: 122.58

Total damage: 127,197.18


Hades Sainti
------------

Connected hits:
Focus (95%): 798 punches, 57 kicks
non-Focus (91.5%): 1,152.9 punches, 82.35 kicks
Total: 1,950.9 punches, 139.35 kicks

Distribution of connected hits:
crit punches (10%): 195.09
crit kicks (10%): 13.935
non-crit punches: 1,755.81
non-crit kicks: 125.415

Total damage: 123,700.995



Should put Destroyers 2.8% ahead, not counting the difference in delay.

However, that's only part of the equation. We also have weaponskills, based on TP gain.

Assuming:
5.1 TP per hit (Rajas + Brutal)
7/8 hits connect with Asuran (given the accuracy), so 16.2 full TP Asuran, and 15.2 TP return average.
Average TP when using weaponskill is approx 110 TP.
Will say 18 hits per weaponskill (get a bit extra from all the AOEs anyway).

Destroyers: 2,043 hits / 18 = 113.5
Hades: 2,090.25 / 18 = 116.125

Means 2.3% more weaponskills. Presumably the same amount of additional damage, but might also slightly favor Hades due to the acc helping Asuran.

With a 65/35 weighting, that puts Destroyers ahead by 1%.



I have 363 acc from skill, gear and dex. Pizza +1 gives me another 39 acc. Without it (but using the same gear) I'd be at a 70%-75% hit rate, which seems about right for some of the boss fights I had pre-pizza when I didn't use sushi. (Found a parse with a 77% hit rate from way back when; taking Focus out would put it at 71%.)


So, looking at the situation of someone from the time before pizza, eating subs or something, and giving a base hit rate of 72% (87% with Focus), I'll rework the above numbers.

Split it between Focus and non-Focus segments:

Focus: 840 punches, 60 kicks
non-Focus: 1260 punches, 90 kicks

base punch damage: 55
base punch crit: 110
base kick damage: 37
base kick crit: 74


Destroyers
----------

Connected hits:
Focus (87%): 730.8 punches, 52.2 kicks
non-Focus (72%): 907.2 punches, 64.8 kicks
Total: 1,638 punches, 117 kicks

Distribution of connected hits:
crit punches (16%): 262.08
crit kicks (10%): 11.7
non-crit punches: 1,375.92
non-crit kicks: 105.3

Total damage: 109,266.3


Hades Sainti
------------

Connected hits:
Focus (90.5%): 760.2 punches, 54.3 kicks
non-Focus (75.5%): 951.3 punches, 67.95 kicks
Total: 1,711.5 punches, 122.25 kicks

Distribution of connected hits:
crit punches (10%): 171.15
crit kicks (10%): 12.225
non-crit punches: 1,540.35
non-crit kicks: 110.025

Total damage: 108,521.325


Puts Destroyers up by 0.7% on melee.


For TP:

Destroyers: 1,755 hits / 18 = 97.5
Hades: 1,833.75 / 18 = 101.875

4.5% in favor of Hades.

Weighted average at 65/35: Hades ahead by 1.1%.



Given the two sample points, I'd guess that at 80% base accuracy the two weapons would be equal in terms of damage, not counting the slight difference in delay (.9% in favor of Destroyers).


Overall answer: For pure damage, there's not much difference. The only real concern is secondary elements. For Hades Sainti, that's: acc for counters; subtle blow; enmity; and a tiny chance at extra evasion. For Destroyers it's slightly faster attack speed and cost.

[Wrish]

This DoT argument is so pointless ... Hades and Destroyers on a boss differ on a parser by like 1-2%, which means killing the boss like 15 or 20 seconds apart ... each side is stacking the conditions in their favor...

If your group ends Salvage with less than 1 minute left, then I'm pretty sure your group has also had to use flies before the boss dies. It's not a solid group, and for safety's sake you'd be better off with Hades.

Is your support an experienced static of WHM, BRD, RDM (or BRD)? Do you have full Usukane and/or pizza at boss time? Do you and a second MNK have a full Penance cycle? All melee know what it means to "feed TP"? If yes to these, clearly the stage is set for Destroyers to win.

Is your back line a random shout group of RDM BRD DRK (no WHM)? Don't know anyone else with Penance? Queasy about gulping down another pizza? Get those Hades, and bring your Jelly ring and even that Arhat's set for when shit hits the fan... your group is about to see your skill as a monk in adverse conditions.

Of course, maybe you have 1 minute left because you don't really care about the boss, in which case why argue about boss weapon choice?

[Cream Soda]

Oh god, Wrish is back.

[mcb]

Ok this is kind of off my topic but somewhat on. Would you pick the Sainti up over buying the Abjuration for Nhead? I have WAR,DRG,DRK at 75. Cause I was either gonna save my money for this, or save my money for the Nhead abjuration. And before you say get it from an HNM shell. The end game shell I'm in, we don't do HNMs.

take some time to farm/craft/spam bcnm w/e and buy both. your talking under a mil for both.

[Thunder]

The OP's question has been answered already; rest of thread is sainti vs destroyers for other people.

Get Nhead. Large improvement > the small improvement of sainti in salvage.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Oh god, Wrish is back.

Can we just skip the bullshit and ban him now?