Dragoon: Penta vs Drakesbane

[Baelorn]

Drakesbane is better because WAR and SAM can use Penta. I think SE realized the need for a solid Polearm WS that was unique to DRG.

Of course I still don't have it but that's what WAR and SAM are for ^^;

[AoshiZ]

I also noticed an argument on the culmulative probability of drakesbane landing all of its hits more than penta thrust. This argument is weak because the probability of landing less hits is always less than that of landing more and does not factor in the fact that the average critical hit % is that much less than accuracy in itself.

That being said I also forgot to mention that drakesbane is far superior in WS element and so if you're not spamming and doing intelligent SC's in a lowman event (such as salvage). Drakesbane has that added benefit

[AoshiZ]

Given the gear available to drg, isn't a full str/dex build going to leave you with plenty of room in pdif to get the full advantage of crits?

Unfortunately, no. The probability of doing all 4 crits is still low. With a crazy Dex build and Crit% up gear... even if you hit 50% critical rate all 4 hits being critical is a low probability of 6.25%

[Rhealana]

My conclusion is that if your pDIF is high enough use Penta thrust. Drakesbane can produce much better damage output on high defense mobs in conjunction with critical % up gear and more TP.

I personally use Drakesbane the majority of the time because of the difficulties of getting 2.8pDIF on things that matter. However in some setups i will choose Pentathrust such as colibri meriting.

Typically I'm sitting at around 600-650 attack in a birds meripo using a typical BRD+COR setup. Along with the piercing bonus, I'm not sure if that will still close the gap for pDIF to make it optimal. I would guess that if Angon or Gungnir proc'd, it would. But does that take into the account that you'd miss one attack from Penta Thrust about 4% more? In the long run it would seem that Drakesbane would produce an average WS that edges out Penta Thrust unless you were under the effects of double minuet + Chaos.

Anyone know the approximate attack needed for G. Colibri to cap pDIF? Or get close.

I'm not sure I follow why the 4% more accuracy to land all hits is irrelevant. Given the total damage of 100 Drakesbanes, and 100 Penta Thrusts, you'll get 4 more Drakesbanes that return 'full' damage opportunities. Please elaborate?

[AoshiZ]

Typically I'm sitting at around 600-650 attack in a birds meripo using a typical BRD+COR setup. Along with the piercing bonus, I'm not sure if that will still close the gap for pDIF to make it optimal. I would guess that if Angon or Gungnir proc'd, it would. But does that take into the account that you'd miss one attack from Penta Thrust about 4% more? In the long run it would seem that Drakesbane would produce an average WS that edges out Penta Thrust unless you were under the effects of double minuet + Chaos.

Anyone know the approximate attack needed for G. Colibri to cap pDIF? Or get close.

In my case, I have done extensive parses with both and have found Penta to have more consistent and higher numbers than drakes on colibri. However my gear selection is also different than other players.

[Rhealana]

In my case, I have done extensive parses with both and have found Penta to have more consistent and higher numbers than drakes on colibri. However my gear selection is also different than other players.

Please post your WS gear, I'm very interested.

[AoshiZ]

Please post your WS gear, I'm very interested.

It hasn't been updated in about a year but my gear is viewable here:

Aoshiz - Gilgamesh - FFXIAH.com

I have some other pieces here and there for drakesbane crit but haven't really gotten around to updating the sets. I think you can see what i have from equip history. not sure if things drop off after a set amount of time.

[AoshiZ]

Anyone know the approximate attack needed for G. Colibri to cap pDIF? Or get close.

I'm not sure I follow why the 4% more accuracy to land all hits is irrelevant. Given the total damage of 100 Drakesbanes, and 100 Penta Thrusts, you'll get 4 more Drakesbanes that return 'full' damage opportunities. Please elaborate?

I'm not sure if this is directed torwards me. But the term "Land all hits" has a semantic of making it sound beneficial to land less total number of hits but still succeed at landing them all. Therefore, you cannot compare the total % chance of landing all hits without comparing the other differences. Otherwise someone could make the claim that because spinning slash has a 95% chance of landing all hits it is therefore always better.

The comparison would then lead to comparing the probability of the extra critical hit(s) damage and the extra penta thrust hit.

Lets analyze the differences directly (ignoring stat modifiers)
Upon both Drakesbane and Penta thrust hitting 4 times.
Penta thrust now has a 95% probability (with full accuracy) to land that 5th hit.
Drakesbane has your critical hit% of landing criticals within its 4 hits.

The criticals of Drakesbane with 2.8 pDIF would net 0.35 extra multiplied damage per hit.

An extra hit would (all by itself) would net a total of 2.8 multiplied by the hits damage.

If you do the math there is dramatic difference in consistency as well as maximum damage.

Addition: For anyone jumping to the end please read my other posts to keep this in context. This is comparing the situation of maxed pDIF.

[Yugl]

I agree with Aoshiz, but in order to reach that attack on Colibri (Piercing bonus means nothing since I believe that is calculated at the end of DMG calcs), you need to have ridiculous attacks. I remember one PT I was doing for fun where we had double Minuet + DRK Roll + Kabob, and Penta would hit consistent 2.5-2.7k DMG. On the other hand, DRG went from I believe 2.3-2.9k DMG. I don't have optimal gear. As for capping pDIF, if it really is 2.8, I THINK you need about 1031ATT WITHOUT Angon. Then 826 with Angon. And 855 with Proc from Relic.

[Raen Ryong]

The set you're using there though strongly favours Penta Thrust because it doesn't even attempt to build on the critical properties of Drakesbane, though I could simply be clicking the wrong link or whatever.

Max pdif may be 2.8, but wouldn't cRatio still cap at ~2.0? Crits will add less but definitely not as little as implied above...

Meaning your 5x Penta will be 5x ~2.0, and not 5x ~2.8 which is a significant difference of over a full hit using the above numbers.

EDIT: Hold on, misread. Max is 2.8 noncrit <_<?

[Yugl]

Actually I remember speaking with Namelessone, and from the Gekko thread, he and others concluded that Ratio caps at 2.3, so you'll never see the cRatio that high on any mob that is a higher level than you.

[Raen Ryong]

I'm on DRG right now in a lowbie area so I'll go and poke a non piercing-effected mob and see what the damages come out as. D on Thal is 94, fSTR will be capped at 18 and I'll hit the mob in Hecatomb / Triumph Ring etc to ensure it's capped.

If pdif = 2.3, expected damage will be roughly 257. If pdif = 2.8, expected damage will be roughly 313, so a HUGE noticable difference.

[AoshiZ]

Yes sorry about the old item sets they were created a long time ago before i've optimized for drakesbane. I was hoping people could get an idea of various pieces of gear i have at my disposal from my various sets. Refer to giers for the dex oriented gear.

As for the pDIF cap. I am only following the numbers i obtained while the random number generation was broken after the 2handed update. It is possible it has changed. However..., the argument is still valid in that the extra criticals of drakesbane have to compete with a 95% guaranteed extra hit. And that the extra criticals have diminished return on high end pDIF.

[Raen Ryong]

Just a VERY small sample size, all vs Goblins in KRT with 133 STR, 94D Thal, so total BD = 112;

272 => pdif 2.42
critical 340 => pdif 3.03
critical 336 => pdif 3
251 => pdif 2.24
220 => pdif 1.96
critical 340 => pdif 3.03
256 => pdif 2.28
285 => pdif 2.54
261 => pdif 2.33
272 => pdif 2.42
critical 347 => pdif 3.09

So over my laughably small sample,

Average capped pdif = 2.31
Average critical pdif = 3.03

I would say that capped pdif is definitely not 2.8 and critical pdif could very likely end up at 3.15 or so.

Your points are still valid, just not as tilted toward the favour of Penta Thrust I would argue.

[AoshiZ]

ok i did some hits too and it seems to be around 2.3 also.

So lets redo the math 95% of an extra 2.3 multiplied hit.

or up to a maximum of .85 extra multiplier per hit for each critical to a maximum of 4.

Of which if you had a 50% critical hit rate (which is extremely high) the chances of getting all 4 hits to critical is 6.25%.

What were those uber crit rate numbers during the crit build days? 30% crit for the best tier including massive amounts of dex from osode and byakko pants which aren't available to drg? of course this is assuming that 100% drakesbane doesn't net extra critical rate. But thats why i calculated the above at 50%. I'm going to need to see numbers to assume its any higher than 50%.

Lets just say it was 50% though. That would be that you need to crit 3/4 to pull ahead. at 2.55 extra multiplier. I believe the chances of that are 18.75%

[Raen Ryong]

Yeah, if you can get to pdif 2.3 then Penta will win out just by the nature of deteriorating crits. I don't see it happening often on anything worthwhile to Drakes/Penta on though

[Rhealana]

I believe the build is 117 DEX for crits vs. G.Colibri, as that's 50 DEX over the supposed 67 AGI of a higher levelled G.Colibri.

So anything lower levelled you'd likely hit a higher crit rate, and anything higher levelled you'd likely not cap pDIF.

That still seems to argue for Drakesbane in just about all situations, albeit for completely different reasons? Also, are we taking into account fTP? 20% STR+DEX vs. 50% STR for the first hit.. wouldn't that make a difference, assuming you're not gearing for a crit build.

[Starr]

Greater Colibri level 82: Defense 327, to get 2.3 cRatio with no defense down buffs you would need 867 Attack, with Dia 2 you would need 780, with Dia 3 you would need 737, with Angon you would need 694, with Dia 2 and Angon you would need 607, with Dia 3 and Angon you would need 534.

[Abandon]

I see the numbers and hear the fancy talk, but I've never in the however many months I've had Drakesbane, ever had an instance where penta outshines Drakesbane. So I'd like to know, what on earth are you guys that argue that penta is better... what the hell are you wearing?

[Starr]

Noone has said it is, Aoshiz said that on Greater Colibri, or other weak mobs, that it can do slightly better.