Random Question Thread IV: ROCKY WINS

[kotaru]

Hello, I've been wondering if 2~3 RNG/NINs tanking Ixion would be realistic in a lowman setup?
Maybe a 6man setup of RNG/NINs + COR and/or BRD + RDM + WHM.

I've never touched the job but I see they have access to mvt speed, dst+1/jelly/terra's, haste and eventually easy thunderkit or occasional Provoke egg.

The one not tanking can DD the tail while staying out of AoE range ( I was told they usually DD right outside the Zeus range ), like a pingpong tank strategy except you DD instead of hate tools.

Has anyone experimented something similar or is there a reason it wouldn't work?

Thanks in advance ^^

[Starr]

What's the point? and no I don't think you could do that at all, 1 PLD and 2 RNGs might be able to do it in time.

[Wulfgang]

Can someone help me find that "Rate your Relic!" thread from a while back? The title may be off but I'm fairly certain it's pretty close. Don't know why I can't find it in search.

[Yugl]

What's the MND caps on cures? Often I hear Enmity Reduction > MND for cures, but I was curious (GET IT) to find out what everyone refers to when they mention soft caps for cures. Also, if Enmity Reduction > MND, then shouldn't the RNG Belt from Einherjar outperform Penitent's Rope?

[drwaffles]

What's the MND caps on cures? Often I hear Enmity Reduction > MND for cures, but I was curious (GET IT) to find out what everyone refers to when they mention soft caps for cures. Also, if Enmity Reduction > MND, then shouldn't the RNG Belt from Einherjar outperform Penitent's Rope?

Theta Sash > Buccaneer's Belt, you'd be pretty silly to spend 15,000 ampoules on it for Cures I-IV seeing as it's just a stepping stone between Rope and Sash. As for your actual question, I don't know the exact values.

[Nerull]

What's the MND caps on cures? Often I hear Enmity Reduction > MND for cures, but I was curious (GET IT) to find out what everyone refers to when they mention soft caps for cures. Also, if Enmity Reduction > MND, then shouldn't the RNG Belt from Einherjar outperform Penitent's Rope?

-enmity > MND for cures 1-4. Only cure5 will benefit noticeably from stacking MND and healing magic skill

As for belts, the correct answer is Theta Sash for cure1-4 and Cleric's Belt for Cure5.

[drwaffles]

Spectral Belt is also a cheap option to tide you over until Theta.

[dantaro]

What's the MND caps on cures? Often I hear Enmity Reduction > MND for cures, but I was curious (GET IT) to find out what everyone refers to when they mention soft caps for cures. Also, if Enmity Reduction > MND, then shouldn't the RNG Belt from Einherjar outperform Penitent's Rope?

Soft cap refers to where each cure more or less caps.

Cure: 30
Cure 2: 90
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 360
Cure 5: none

/WHM with 60 MND 56 VIT (such as say, a taru COR) will cap out on cures 1-3, so you don't really need that much to hit the soft cap. Once at the soft cap, its easy to push past, but not by much. You'll have a hard time getting much further past that with just MND, but cure potency gear bypasses soft cap since it adds X% of the cure ontop of whatever you do, not counting towards the cap.

-Enmity vs MND is a careful fight. Capping out -enmity gear is a great idea for an extended fight, one where you run the risk of capping CE and pulling hate off your tanks. However, in shorter fights (any king, any non-small man wyrm/ToAU/SW) you can sub in more MND if you'd like to reduce the amount of curing you need to be doing in general. However, the glory of WHM is that a lot of our best -enmity gear is also our best curing gear, or on par with the best. AF+1 hands, for example, are the best Cure hands, but also come with a nice -4 enmity. Blessed +1 hands are 8 MND and 6% haste and also have -4 enmity. Blessed legs (+1) are +7 (8) MND with -3 (4) enmity, on par with some of the best -enmity gear without sacrificing MND.

Head gear is a touchy subject. Cures 1-4 almost scream Raven/Mirror/Hydra, but depending on the rest of your gear and the situation the MDK spec'd for curing is better. My rule of thumb is a question of -enmity vs MND vs HP, though. Keeping a fairly high HP (I idle at almost 1.1k as taru WHM/SCH) through cures to benefit Sublimation (as well as Martyr as I generally fire that off without curing to full. its a cure after all, I need to be able to use it quickly) is very important to me, and I gear to that.

To the question of Buccaneer's vs Penitence, unless I'm gearing full -enmity I will almost always take the 5 MND over the 1 -enmity. its a minor -enmity increase vs a minor HP increase on cures. Plus, unless you're looking to toss away 15000 amps that can go towards something else, there are other -enmity waists with -4 that are cheap. I use Buccaneer's because I'm also a COR and its gear for my MH, but before that I used the buyable -4 enmity waist (can't remember the name).


TL;DR version:

Soft cap refers to when you naturally hit a cap on the amount that MND increases a spell's potency. Cure V never caps out and has static enmity generation, so don't worry about putting that much -enmity into cure V (though putting -enmity in does lower the amount it generates and CAN be useful!)

-enmity is great for extended fight, but MND gear has its place too in other situations. If you had to choose one, go -enmity

[jimbobsonofgod]

Can someone help me find that "Rate your Relic!" thread from a while back? The title may be off but I'm fairly certain it's pretty close. Don't know why I can't find it in search.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/63762...ic-weapon.html

this one ?

[Yugl]

Soft cap refers to where each cure more or less caps.

Cure: 30
Cure 2: 90
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 360
Cure 5: none

/WHM with 60 MND 56 VIT (such as say, a taru COR) will cap out on cures 1-3, so you don't really need that much to hit the soft cap. Once at the soft cap, its easy to push past, but not by much. You'll have a hard time getting much further past that with just MND, but cure potency gear bypasses soft cap since it adds X% of the cure ontop of whatever you do, not counting towards the cap.

-Enmity vs MND is a careful fight. Capping out -enmity gear is a great idea for an extended fight, one where you run the risk of capping CE and pulling hate off your tanks. However, in shorter fights (any king, any non-small man wyrm/ToAU/SW) you can sub in more MND if you'd like to reduce the amount of curing you need to be doing in general. However, the glory of WHM is that a lot of our best -enmity gear is also our best curing gear, or on par with the best. AF+1 hands, for example, are the best Cure hands, but also come with a nice -4 enmity. Blessed +1 hands are 8 MND and 6% haste and also have -4 enmity. Blessed legs (+1) are +7 (8) MND with -3 (4) enmity, on par with some of the best -enmity gear without sacrificing MND.

Head gear is a touchy subject. Cures 1-4 almost scream Raven/Mirror/Hydra, but depending on the rest of your gear and the situation the MDK spec'd for curing is better. My rule of thumb is a question of -enmity vs MND vs HP, though. Keeping a fairly high HP (I idle at almost 1.1k as taru WHM/SCH) through cures to benefit Sublimation (as well as Martyr as I generally fire that off without curing to full. its a cure after all, I need to be able to use it quickly) is very important to me, and I gear to that.

To the question of Buccaneer's vs Penitence, unless I'm gearing full -enmity I will almost always take the 5 MND over the 1 -enmity. its a minor -enmity increase vs a minor HP increase on cures. Plus, unless you're looking to toss away 15000 amps that can go towards something else, there are other -enmity waists with -4 that are cheap. I use Buccaneer's because I'm also a COR and its gear for my MH, but before that I used the buyable -4 enmity waist (can't remember the name).


TL;DR version:

Soft cap refers to when you naturally hit a cap on the amount that MND increases a spell's potency. Cure V never caps out and has static enmity generation, so don't worry about putting that much -enmity into cure V (though putting -enmity in does lower the amount it generates and CAN be useful!)

-enmity is great for extended fight, but MND gear has its place too in other situations. If you had to choose one, go -enmity

I have SCH more in mind than WHM, but I like the info. Do you happen to know the MND/VIT values for capping those cure values? Or at least the ratio.

Also, since SCH doesn't have access to many Cure Potency gear pieces, would I be better off using Enmity Reduction or MP for the following types of fights:

Limbus
Einherjar
ISNM
ENM
Minor events
Salvage
Dynamis

Aka most Non-HNM stuff.

[Ashira]

Unless you're spamming accession cure III/IV like mad, I don't see why you'd bother worrying that much about enmity gear in the first place - unless your tanks are kinda poopy. Then I understand it.

Sans cure potency gear... well, I've always been a MND WHM so I'm hardly the one to ask what to equip outside of MND, honestly. However, I have this lovely Cure V spell I can continue to push up. Equipping pure MND really doesn't do as much.

It seems pieces that can offer you both stats would be your best bet, and take fast cast/cure cast where you can get it, and throw in haste wherever else for the recast times. It seems much more of a balancing act than a very cure-oriented job like WHM.

Just remember, those max MPs are only as good as your first gear change. I personally on WHM never go with a -HP/+MP piece since Devotion/Martyr and the introduction of SCH; I'd emphasize your HP pool is a bit more important than mine on WHM/SCH since I don't utilize Sublimation often, esp when I will likely take damage.

[Ashira]

-enmity > MND for cures 1-4. Only cure5 will benefit noticeably from stacking MND and healing magic skill

As for belts, the correct answer is Theta Sash for cure1-4 and Cleric's Belt for Cure5.

Haste > all on Cure 3. Well, outside Cure Potency obviously.

[drwaffles]

Haste > all on Cure 3. Well, outside Cure Potency obviously.

Haste is one of the last things I'd worry about on a spell with a 6-second base recast, especially since you'll usually be getting Fast Cast from Light Arts and some Haste already from the spell itself, Blessed Trousers and maybe Pumps/Mitts. Gonna rage if you advocate Walahra over Raven, assuming no Cure-based Selenian.

[Nerull]

Haste > all on Cure 3. Well, outside Cure Potency obviously.

Well obviously there exist more stats than -enmity and MND, I was just kinda addressing his question about the usefulness of MND on cures.

I seems to be the only mage fond of Conserve MP builds. I macro in goliard body, cobra hands/legs/feet, and Selenian Cap for cures, regen, etc. If I pull hate on SCH, it's from nuking and spamming aoe buffs, not from curing. Besides, gaiters and -40% PDT make me not so afraid of pulling hate once in a while.

[Yugl]

So if I understand this correctly:

Fast Cast/Haste > Enmity > MP/MND for curing?

Edit: If this is correct, is there a ratio for each? For example, 2% Fast Cast:5Enmity or something like that?

[FailureMidgard]

I strongly disagree with Ashira here. To start with, the correct answer is "shit is situational". If you're aoe-ing cures, haste is a valuable stat (and -enmity becomes even more valuable), other than that, I think it's pretty garbage. 25% haste on gear would lower your recast by a whole 1.5 seconds at most.

Furthermore, the whole idea that you don't need -enmity on cure3 is a huge logical fallacy. 2 cure3s is identical to 1 cure4 for enmity. Casting cure3 twice is the exact same as casting cure4, you want -enmity on both. Also, you don't need a long fight at all for it to be useful, especially in lowman/DD-tank things (salvage/limbus). It's -very- good to be able to toss out an early cure4 without generating too much hate, esp in say SSR vs imps that amnesia right away, or zhayolm vs a frog that water bombs twice in a row at the start/etc. I could go on, but I don't see much point. The idea is that a DD tank doesn't instantly hit cap enmity, and it doesn't need to be a long fight for -enmity to help.

As for mnd values, it's going to depend partly on your healing skill (ie, light arts or dark arts...do you care about capping cure4 in dark arts...I am fairly certain that a haste/-enm set will not cap your cure4 in dark arts). But, I don't have values off the top of my head...it shouldn't be too hard to just go mess around and see if a given set is capped...just lose any +cure potency items, and the cure caps are 30, 90, 180, 360 for cure1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.

I don't think there is a correct answer to the best "standard" set for cure4. -enmity, conserve mp, haste are all good. Potency when not capped (Light Obi also!) is the only stat that I think wins hands down.

[Nerull]

So if I understand this correctly:

Fast Cast/Haste > Enmity > MP/MND for curing?

Edit: If this is correct, is there a ratio for each? For example, 2% Fast Cast:5Enmity or something like that?

I'm not sure how you expect to mathematically compare completely different things. apples and oranges etc etc.

It's not like a melee job where you can say that x amount of haste is better than y amount of acc is better than z amount of attack.

edit: and don't forget that you can macro fast cast gear at the start of a spell, then end in -enmity/haste/conserveMP.

[Ashira]

Selenian Cap, yes. Standing on WHM is still Walah, but I also advocate more HP than most WHMs, and it works well for me.

Thank you, Midgard, considering I am the one who did all the enmity tests with Kaeko and cast cure 1 321 times to set our standards at the very beginning, I'm quite aware what enmity values are and understand some of the intricacies moreso than most.

I don't have enough space to fuck around with -Enmity, and I didn't long before I started going full out in fastcast/haste either. Having been as involved with the Enmity testing as I have been, and knowing that the tanks I work with don't completely fail, I'm happy with my choices. If I need to I can just cast Cure 3 repeatedly without any wait times. I often like to have it available faster now as well with Solace, providing more damage mitigation with Cureskin and even throwing higher cures when unnecessary if I don't have Flash up or something like that. I know what to watch for, I know when to worry, I know when I can go a little crazy and cast a Curaga IV and when that really isn't a good idea.

If tanks do happen to drop, yes, it's happened that I will get hate over the remaining melee first, but frankly that has even been a benefit. Mob runs to me, hits me twice or whatever, then runs back.. in that time the melee has probably gotten cured (hopefully) by other support and is more capable of pseudotanking the mob rather than dropping right off and leaving mages helpless to just die. Of course that doesn't happen every time either. It's just an example.

As to the Conserve MP, I have a friend who is very pro-Conserve MP, but it's another case where I just do not have the space to be carrying stuff around like that.

Basically, I have a recast set that started for things like Blindna which has a stupidly long recast time and makes melee the most whiny. Then I just started tagging it in at the end of basically every spell and just found I liked having to wait less. For a long while Dynamis was the only place I went WHM and I am often the only WHM for an alliance, so I really needed every second I could get.

In any case, most of your Haste gear for WHM is going to have your Enmity and MND stats on it anyway, so frankly things work out in everyone's favor no matter what.

[drwaffles]

So if I understand this correctly:

Fast Cast/Haste > Enmity > MP/MND for curing?

Edit: If this is correct, is there a ratio for each? For example, 2% Fast Cast:5Enmity or something like that?

Personally it's my belief that:

Potency > -enmity > MND > Conserve MP > Haste/FC > MP for Cures I-IV

Potency > MND > -enmity > Conserve MP > Haste/FC > MP for Cure V.

This is only for WHM, obviously. It's a different kettle of fish when you're talking about SCH and RDM.

Taking this hierarchy into consideration, the optimum Cure I-IV setup (in my opinion) would be:

Main: Templar Mace
Sub: Legion Scutum
Ammo: White Tathlum
Head: Selenian Cap (MND+6, Fast Cast+2, Potency+3%)
Neck: Republican Silver Medal
Ear1: Novia Earring
Ear2: Roundel Earring
Body: Aristocrat's Coat
Hands: Blessed Mitts +1
Ring1: Tamas Ring
Ring2: Trooper's Ring
Back: Mahatma Cape
Waist: Theta Sash
Legs: Blessed Trousers +1
Feet: Blessed Pumps +1

That's -46 enmity without merits. You could replace Blessed Mitts +1 with either Raven Bracers or Hydra Gloves for an extra -1 enmity, but I think this is the exception to the above rule considering you'd be losing fairly substantial Haste, MND and MP boosts. The optimum Cure V setup would be:

Main: Templar Mace
Sub: Muse Tariqah
Ammo: Holy Ampulla
Head: Selenian Cap
Neck: Ajari Bead Necklace
Ear1: Celestial Earring
Ear2: Roundel Earring
Body: Aristocrat's Coat
Hands: Healer's Mitts +1
Ring1: Tamas Ring
Ring2: Celestial Ring
Back: Aslan Cape
Waist: Cleric's Belt
Legs: Mahatma Slops
Feet: Marduk's Crackows

Note that these sets don't take into account Medicine Ring either since I'm not really a fan.

[Ashira]

Main: Templar Mace
Sub: Muse Tariqah
Ammo: Holy Ampulla
Head: Selenian Cap
Neck: Ajari Bead Necklace
Ear1: Celestial Earring
Ear2: Roundel Earring
Body: Aristocrat's Coat
Hands: Healer's Mitts +1
Ring1: Tamas Ring
Ring2: Celestial Ring
Back: Aslan Cape
Waist: Cleric's Belt
Legs: Mahatma Slops
Feet: Marduk's Crackows

Note that these sets don't take into account Medicine Ring either since I'm not really a fan.

Replace Celestial with Communion Earring, and Ring with Omega (not going to carry around a 5MND ring just for Cure5 before getting Star/Communion, so I'm taking the hit ), change Mahatma Slops to Blessed +1 (don't go with -VIT either, which is why Aslan > Ixion )... oh and no luck on that damn Tariqah, never drops on my pops.. but that's essentially my Cure V setup. Only get like 1 more HP with the Hlr Mitts +1 over Blessed +1 too, so if I find myself really trying to keep space I'll leave 'em behind


Also, ditto on Medicine Ring.