Mac Vs PC - Laptop

[Mayareira]

As far as I know all MBP's come with a DVI/VGA adapter. At least mine did a couple of years ago.

[Isiolia]

It's a Mini-Displayport only. You can buy adapters, though they're not that cheap considering ($30 for DVI or VGA, $100 for Dual Link DVI), they don't include one.

The "Apple way" is just to pay their obscene price for the 24" LED Cinema Display, for which you don't need an adapter.

[Korietsu]

Also, mac battery life > PC battery life by far.

[Darus Grey]

Also, mac battery life > PC battery life by far.

Needs more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>, it's fucking huge.

When it comes to Macs, the real reason they're considered "better" for Multimedia still, is that there is a large amount of commercial software that is still OSX only, or highly optimized for it(Avid is a good example, Windows compatible, but runs like crap, where on OSX it's the top tier of video editing). Despite popular belief, the world doesn't actually revolve around Adobe, in-fact it's a lot rarer in professional areas in my experience. Especially if you look outside Photoshop, none of their apps are industry standard beyond PS.

Of course this is going to change with Snow Leopard, where based on dev builds, OSX is going to take back the performance crown thanks to OpenCL. Windows is years away from standardizing it at the OS level.

The real reason to go mac though imho is cost...they're actually cheaper in the long-term.Resale value of macs is so high that you often can get 50-70% of it's value back 2-3 years later. I posted my MBP in the buy/sell section here and basically got laughed at for wanting $800 for it.
Put it up on ebay and in the end got $1050 for it. I originally only paid $1580, and had it for 2 years. A high-end windows based laptop would be near worthless by then.

If you graduate and go into graphics professionally, you also can't beat the price of the Mac Pro(they're technically also the best priced servers...). They sell them way cheaper than you could build yourself from the same parts as long as you stick to the base models and don't do HDD/Ram/etc upgrades(which you should pretty much never do from anyone, but particularly Apple).

Also Protip: As a student, you can get a student membership to the apple developer program for $99(for a year), which let's you buy a mac in the Pro line(MP or MBP), for a 20% discount, even after the $99 it's better than the student discount.

[Isiolia]

If you graduate and go into graphics professionally, you also can't beat the price of the Mac Pro(they're technically also the best priced servers...). They sell them way cheaper than you could build yourself from the same parts as long as you stick to the base models and don't do HDD/Ram/etc upgrades(which you should pretty much never do from anyone, but particularly Apple).

Ehhh, maybe, maybe not. At the very least it could be said that you can get the same basic power out of a -far- less expensive desktop. If you're doing Photoshop work, you don't need Xeons, registered memory, and so on. You can build an i7 system for under $1k, there's no need to pay $2.5k for an i7 based Xeon system.

To be fair, there are certainly more expensive machines with similar specs n' all from other vendors. Mac Pros are decently competitive in their particular niche - the "problem" is that other vendors offer solid towers at half the cost too, whereas Apple jumps from iMacs to workstation class.

[Darus Grey]

Well, I can't speak for graphics in the photoshop sense, my realm is video, where having registered memory and such actually makes a difference at the professional level(you'll get random color errors that could put you outside the broadcast spectrum standards, requiring you to re-do it, if you don't). In that class they're very competitive.

I agree though, we need a Mac mid-tier with upgradeable options. Especially with Snow Leopard having large performance boosts with multiple video cards.

[Isiolia]

Sure, I wouldn't say that those features are never called for. Just that they often aren't, despite being the kind of thing that drives the price up.
'course, some of those features aren't exactly -that- expensive anyway. The Xeon version of the i7 920, the 3520, is around $35 more expensive. Ones supporting dual CPU configs and all that are, of course, quite a bit more...but that's what's in the $2500 basic Mac Pro, a $315 (retail) CPU. ECC memory is around twice as expensive, but RAM is cheap, so it's still maybe $110-120 for 4GB.

You can get the same CPU/RAM in a Dell Precision 3500 for much less (just though of that one because I have several sitting in my office at the moment). The 64-bit config starts at $999. Add the same CPU the Mac Pro has, and it's $1249. Now, at that point, the RAM is still 1GB, the main HDD is only 80GB, and so on. But it's literally half the cost of the Mac Pro. Granted, put in Dell-priced RAM and HDDs, and it climbs up there - but the option is there to buy it barebones, where it's not with Apple.

A dual CPU config is a bit more, add in RAM/drives to be similar, and you get a $3300 machine, same as from Apple (though likely with better video hardware), though again, can buy it stripped down too.

I think we agree though - there's a void there for Apple's product lineup. 'course, there has been for years, and I fuss at our Apple rep every time I see him.

[Darus Grey]

Tit for tat matchup it's $1850/vs $2000. When looking at the apple prices, gotta remember most people buying the pro level stuff have professional or developer discounts of 20%.

Though the base model of the newer mac pro is a joke, everyone agrees that one is over-priced(was a huge fuss in the community).

Dual CPU models though, are only $2600, almost $1000 cheaper than dell(unless buying through a corporate discount, though with Apple, you can get 20% off just by yourself)

Plus, again, Initial cost isn't real cost. As I pointed out, Macs depreciate at an incredibly slow rate...If you upgrade every 3 years, it's the equivalent to being an additional 30% cheaper.

[Isiolia]

We buy Apple stuff too, and we don't get nearly 20%. Typically more like half that. Dell is a bit better since they actually tend to build a quote for us on bulk orders instead of go with a fixed Educational pricing. If you're in the position to get a discount on Macs, chances are you can get a discount from other vendors as well.

Depreciation also isn't always a factor. I mean, it could be, but from our standpoint it doesn't affect our purchasing at all due to how our state/school's system works.

[Darus Grey]

Developer/Professional discount is higher than the education one, the benefit being you can get the 20% discount even if only buying one.

Depreciation is ALWAYS a factor. ALWAYS.

Even in a school system where you tend to run things to end-of-life cycles. You can still sell 10yr+ old Emacs for $200+, this is unique to the apple secondary market, in that the computers have a baseline value they don't fall below.

Where a dell/equivalent, at end-of-life you have to actually pay someone to get rid of it(or at least, you're giving it away to a recycler at best), meaning even running them for 10yrs, depreciated value results in a $200~+ less in loss. A total life-cycle savings of 10%~20%

Though we're not talking about bulk buys here >.> we're talking about buying a single unit for a multimedia professional.

[Isiolia]

Depreciation may affect someone, I just mean it doesn't factor into our departmental budget at all (especially since we generate our own budget). Honestly, the whole way it's handled is retarded, but that's a whole 'nother tangent =P
We get rid of Macs/PCs the exact same way - surplus auction. Macs may fetch a higher price, but usually by the time anything makes it there, it's pretty old n' beat up.

We don't usually buy Macs in bulk either, though we do with other brands. I'm sure other departments do.

[Senoska]

That's a huge load of crap. Hardware is going to depreciate at the same rate, pc or mac.

The hardware is nearly identical in both machines with only subtle differences. No one has given a good reason why you need a mac over a PC. It's obviously not hardware anymore, is it software? The mac os? Tell me what it does different than windows in terms of adobe programs.

Its this simple, if you want to buy the Starbucks of computers, buy a mac. You're grossly overpaying for a status symbol, and one that isn't all that great anyhow.

[Darus Grey]

That's a huge load of crap. Hardware is going to depreciate at the same rate, pc or mac.

The hardware is nearly identical in both machines with only subtle differences. No one has given a good reason why you need a mac over a PC. It's obviously not hardware anymore, is it software? The mac os? Tell me what it does different than windows in terms of adobe programs.

Its this simple, if you want to buy the Starbucks of computers, buy a mac. You're grossly overpaying for a status symbol, and one that isn't all that great anyhow.

You'd be right, if you weren't wrong. They simply do not depreciate at the same rate, and there's 20+ years of evidence to show that.

Shocking I know, but branding works. In this case to a net benefit for a smart consumer.

[Senoska]

You're insane. Any high end computer will depreciate at the same rate. If you bought a pc with the exact same stats as a mac (or the other way around) its going to be the same. Throwing "Mac" on something doesn't make it better. What matters is obviously the hardware, not the os. Some of the older machines perhaps depreciated at a slower rate due to hardware differences but since Mac switched over to intel, there's no way or reason that macs will retain their value better than a pc. The "20+ years of evidence" is irrelevant here since shit changes so quickly in the tech world.

A high end computer with comparable hardware to that of a high end production computer will depreciate the same as a mac pro or any other high end product.

There are no differences between the two systems besides superficial differences or people price hiking for the starbucks effect.

Seriously, if you want to find out what computer to buy, go to the mac site and find your average computer. Take note of the price. Go to any store or website and find a PC with similar stats. You're looking at, at minimum, a $400 price difference in favor of the PC.

I have nothing wrong with OSX and have it on my hack-n-tosh netbook. I think its a decent OS. What I do have a problem with is Apple price hiking the fuck out of their hardware.

Their hardware isn't their hardware anymore. You're paying for he OS and branding, and lets face it, there is absolutely NOTHING in OSX that will make it run photoshop or flash any better than a PC.

[Darus Grey]

Lot of random shit that has jack-shit to do with anything

Nope, sorry, you're wrong. Macs depreciate slower. I do like the ""20+ years of evidence" is irrelevant" bit though.

That's some A+ trolling material, I'll give you that. It's hard to form a counter-argument to someone who simply dismisses facts as irrelevant. Good strategy.

[Cephius]

Nope, sorry, you're wrong. Macs depreciate slower. I do like the ""20+ years of evidence" is irrelevant" bit though.

That's some A+ trolling material, I'll give you that. It's hard to form a counter-argument to someone who simply dismisses facts as irrelevant. Good strategy.

He's uh, still sort of right though. These new Macs come with the same hardware that's used in PCs. I see no reason why they'd depreciate slower, but I don't think it matters that much anyway. It boils down to being a personal preference choice. Do you like Macs? Great, go and buy one.

And please, it's been good so far keeping the flaming to a minimum in a topic that rarely does so. Let's keep it that way.

[Darus Grey]

He's uh, still sort of right though. These new Macs come with the same hardware that's used in PCs. I see no reason why they'd depreciate slower, but I don't think it matters that much anyway. It boils down to being a personal preference choice. Do you like Macs? Great, go and buy one.

And please, it's been good so far keeping the flaming to a minimum in a topic that rarely does so. Let's keep it that way.

That's great and all...but they DO depreciate slower...just because Apple switched to Intel didn't change that. I sold my laptop like a month ago for about 70% what I paid for it after using it for *2 years*.

Is BRANDING and BRAND VALUE such a foreign concept? Alienwares when they were considered top of the line also depreciated slower, despite being "the same parts". Toyotas and Hondas depreciate slower than Fords.

As for how much it matters...uh...why wouldn't it? Do you hate saving money?

If I buy a a $1000 computer, and a $1500 computer, after two years I sell both, I get $300 for the $1000 one, and $900 for the $1500 one.

That makes the $1500 one $100 cheaper than the $1000 one.

[Senoska]

That's great and all...but they DO depreciate slower...just because Apple switched to Intel didn't change that. I sold my laptop like a month ago for about 70% what I paid for it after using it for *2 years*.

Is BRANDING and BRAND VALUE such a foreign concept? Alienwares when they were considered top of the line also depreciated slower, despite being "the same parts". Toyotas and Hondas depreciate slower than Fords.

As for how much it matters...uh...why wouldn't it? Do you hate saving money?

If I buy a a $1000 computer, and a $1500 computer, after two years I sell both, I get $300 for the $1000 one, and $900 for the $1500 one.

That makes the $1500 one $100 cheaper than the $1000 one.

HURRRRRRRRR

So let me get this right. What you're saying is something with 512MB of ram and a pent. 3 chip is going to sell for 70% of its value because its a mac, right?

The hardware dictates the price of a computer, not the brand. No one is going to pay for shit except maybe the delusional. If you buy a $2000 PC, its likely to be worth 70% of its value a year down the road. If you buy a $2000 mac, the same applies. No one is going to pay any more than that. In two years, the hardware is going to be out dated but still worth SOMETHING on both machines. When something is vastly outdated, its trashed.

This was NOT true back when. Mac had used their own hardware that was not exactly the same to that in a retail dell system, for example. Some people specifically wanted mac hardware. This is no longer the case. You're comparing the history of mac/pc to current day. Its comparing apples to oranges(hur hur pun.) What was once true is no longer and doesn't apply.

[Isiolia]

It still is true because regardless of what's inside the case, it's the only stuff that's supported and legal to run the Mac OS on (yes, I'm aware of what you can do on the hackintosh side, just sayin'). To a point, it's the same as it was then, despite that you're not getting a PowerPC inside. The end result is still the same, you get a machine that runs the Mac OS and software.

Couple that with branding, general aesthetics, etc, which increase percieved value.

[Darus Grey]

The hardware dictates the price of a computer, not the brand.

Saved for the lulz. You're so totally wrong that it's amazing, I want to live in this fantasy world of yours where everything and one is equal and branding has no effect on the human mind.

You keep shouting that "It doesn't apply anymore!" and yet you only have to check ebay history to see that you're wrong. Granted I know you won't do that, which is cool. We've already established you won't let facts get in the way of your position, they're irrelevant.

Edit: I thought about editing this to avoid Cephius's wrath. but decided against it. There's really no "nice" way to tell people they're full of it.