Multi-hit WS accuracy testing

[Cream Soda]

Because you still have the acc, you just don't get any extra hitrate from it.

Just because you go overboard, doesn't mean you don't have the acc. Lets say I have 410 acc, acc caps on this mob at 400. I'm at 95% hitrate. I remove 5 acc. Does my hitrate go to 92.25? no, because of that acc still being in effect.

I never said it increases hitrate, but you still get the acc, regardless.

Edit: again, the acc won't do anything for you if you're capped, but you still get it, since you like to get all technical and shit.

[Argettio]

If you want to "prove" that gorget give +10 to all hits, you classify the tp returns and count the global accuracy when putting all swings together. If you find +5% hitrate the conclusion is that they give +10 acc to all hits. Now if they actually give +10 acc and the first hit gets 80 acc boost, you will not find +5% hit rate... you should find less.

Right I will preface this with the statement that I haven't read any of the old testing on gorgets.

Some one went out and test these. The result was every one now thinks they give 10 acc to all hits. Which as you nicely pointed out is ~5% hit rate.

As you also pointed out, if the first hit seems to be getting a big acc boost for free then again as you say, 10 accuracy would result in less than a 5% increase in hit rate if you accounted for this 'first hit accuracy boost'

Now back when this testing was done people would have seen a 5% increase in hit rate and said "That's ~10acc on all hits!".

But now we know (read: think) there is an innate accuracy boost for the first hit, which would have skewed those results. Actually meaning that the gorget is giving more that 10 acc to all the hits after the first.

(simply using your logic)

[pchan]

Right I will preface this with the statement that I haven't read any of the old testing on gorgets.

Some one went out and test these. The result was every one now thinks they give 10 acc to all hits. Which as you nicely pointed out is ~5% hit rate.

As you also pointed out, if the first hit seems to be getting a big acc boost for free then again as you say, 10 accuracy would result in less than a 5% increase in hit rate if you accounted for this 'first hit accuracy boost'

Now back when this testing was done people would have seen a 5% increase in hit rate and said "That's ~10acc on all hits!".

But now we know (read: think) there is an innate accuracy boost for the first hit, which would have skewed those results. Actually meaning that the gorget is giving more that 10 acc to all the hits after the first.

(simply using your logic)

I'd like to know what gorget do, that's all I care about.

[Starr]

err actually wait, by the OPs test and the mob being EM and 1 accuracy = 1% hit rate (as he said, not sure if it's the case) it should show the additional hits of the Guillotine at 60% hit rate shouldn't it?

[Argettio]

I'd like to know what gorget do, that's all I care about.

I thought I just said?

OK, I didn't say, but based on what we know now we can infer that they give more than 10 accuracy; or all our previous assumptions were wrong, the world is really round, the Dodo is just really good at hiding and George Bush was just acting stupid for a 8 year long bet.

err actually wait, by the OPs test and the mob being EM and 1 accuracy = 1% hit rate (as he said, not sure if it's the case) it should show the additional hits of the Guillotine at 60% hit rate shouldn't it?

Yes if he was to repeat his testing with a gorget then we could get a good handle on what is happening.

[Starr]

OP needs to do this test again WITH NO GORGET OR ACCURACY NECK ON so we can compare results.

[Baelorn]

We've been noticing an acc/pdif boost with Tachi: Gekko and its compatriots in particular lately, but I've often thought that the first hit of any WS is special.

I've said this elsewhere mostly because I use Howling Fist a lot. The second hit is always significantly weaker(usually 1/3rd of the first hit's damage) and tends to miss more often. It's easy to tell what was a missed hit, single hit or double attack from the TP return too which is nice. I just wish it was easier to record

[Hookah]

But now we know (read: think) there is an innate accuracy boost for the first hit, which would have skewed those results. Actually meaning that the gorget is giving more that 10 acc to all the hits after the first.

wat

First of all, OP never posted the gear he used, so we have no idea if he was even using a gorget for this test. I would hope he wasn't considering that gorget doesn't give any visable stat boosts (meaning it won't effect how a mob cons), which would mean his entire test is skewed because he wasn't at 50% to begin with.

Secondly, even if he was using a gorget, this data would support the OLD theory that they only effect 1 hit. How could he parse 7% below the target 50% on all the secondary hits with 10 more acc ?

Where you're getting that this proves it gives more than 10 acc is beyond me.

[Argettio]

wat

First of all, OP never posted the gear he used, so we have no idea if he was even using a gorget for this test. I would hope he wasn't considering that gorget doesn't give any visable stat boosts (meaning it won't effect how a mob cons), which would mean his entire test is skewed because he wasn't at 50% to begin with.

Secondly, even if he was using a gorget, this data would support the OLD theory that they only effect 1 hit. How could he parse 7% below the target 50% on all the secondary hits with 10 more acc ?

Where you're getting that this proves it gives more than 10 acc is beyond me.

I was theorizing based on the assumption that the original gorget testing showed a ~5% increase in hit rate during multi hit WS.

5% hit rate is normally ~10 accuracy

But if the WS has an innate boost on the first hit, then it skews it so that 5% hit rate is more than 10 accuracy.

These numbers do not come from the testing (apart from the statement that the first hit has an accuracy boost), they come from the logic of how we worked out 'Gorget = 10 accuracy on all hits'.

It isn't fact, and it isn't even a good theory, it was just reversing the statements pchan made.

For the record: This testing - in its current form - does not say anything directly about gorgets.

We were simply talking about what it could mean depending on the assumptions previous gorget testers may have made.

As for the other swings only hitting at 43% of the time. We I am still seeking clarification about what me means by that.
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed 2 or more hits
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed exactly 2 hits
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed 4/4 hits

The OP isn't clear. The sample size is also far to small, at this point the margin of error is big enough that 43% could be 50%.

I will go out on a limb and say what I think this testing will lead to:
* The first hit of all WS have a large boost in accuracy (very often enough to cap accuracy)
* Subsequent hits (inc DA) are subjected to the normal accuracy calculations

The first point has been proven for Y/G/K with testing, and it would make 'sense' that this would stand true of all WS (single or multi hit)

I've said this elsewhere mostly because I use Howling Fist a lot. The second hit is always significantly weaker(usually 1/3rd of the first hit's damage) and tends to miss more often. It's easy to tell what was a missed hit, single hit or double attack from the TP return too which is nice. I just wish it was easier to record

It is pretty easy to make spellcast calculate your TP return and (given your weapon/sTP details) /echo that into chat. You could then save the chat log via kparse or something and then go through it manually (or write a mini parse yourself)

[Hookah]

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry.

But as for this:

As for the other swings only hitting at 43% of the time. We I am still seeking clarification about what me means by that.
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed 2 or more hits
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed exactly 2 hits
Does he mean 43% of the time he landed 4/4 hits

The OP isn't clear. The sample size is also far to small, at this point the margin of error is big enough that 43% could be 50%.

He was pretty clear, he did 100 guillotines, 129/300 of the secondary hits landed, 43% of those hits landed.

[Baelorn]

It is pretty easy to make spellcast calculate your TP return and (given your weapon/sTP details) /echo that into chat. You could then save the chat log via kparse or something and then go through it manually (or write a mini parse yourself)

Oh I didn't know you could do that. Would make it a lot simpler for sure.

[Argettio]

Oh I didn't know you could do that. Would make it a lot simpler for sure.

Window forum link to TP returner

The post give you the basics and if you know what you are doing with spellcast you can use that to /echo whatever you want.

I use a variation of the code IneptVagrant posted, but I put a set of rules to check which weapon (so it doesn't give stupid numbers when I use a sword instead of a dagger).

He was pretty clear, he did 100 guillotines, 129/300 of the secondary hits landed, 43% of those hits landed.

OK, now I read it again it does make sense. I am not sure how I missed that before.

[Kirschy]

It doesn't discredit Gorgets yet, but I feel testing in this area can lead to a better understanding of gorgets. I personalli don't believe gorgets give +10 accuracy to all hits, it doesn't make much sense to me. There was only one gorget test I remember seeing, and I remember it being a weak test on a 2-hit WS on weaker mobs. There's not a lot of testing done on accuracy and/or WS accuracy. Most of it come froms from generalizations and the community pushing it as fact. I think the generalizations work well for the most part, esp when we throw in merit parses to back us up. But it doesn't help when trying to come up precise numbers in purely testing scenarios.

tl;dr I'd like to see some nice testing and debate on multihit WS acc. There's still a lot to learn and confirm.

Also Guillotine was accuracy was modified in a patch shortly after the 2H update~

[Nameless]

One thing I am interested in knowing is if the hits after the first hit carry the same characteristic of the WS. This is what I mean:

WS type 1 - ftp based on tp:
1st hit = ftp based on tp
following hits = 1.0 ftp
Conclusion: Following hits don't follow the WS's characteristic

WS type 2 - acc based on tp:
1st hit = Acc bonus from tp and from being first hit of a WS
following hits = gets acc bonus from tp?
Conclusion: Unknown. Not sure I am really interested in the result since most of this type of WS are fairly weak, but knowing this one will probably give us a trend.

WS type 3 - Critical based on tp
1st hit = Critical % based on tp and can critical
following hits = can critical but is critical % based on tp again? In other words, drakesbane gives 10% critical hit rate at 100%, do the follow hits get that 10%?
Conclusion: Unknown and likely makes a huge difference.

I had a merit party as drg a few days back, and I have noticed some discrepancy between the parse result and my damage calculator (damage calculator suggested a much higher average using the current model of game machanic). And it seems like either that there is a accuracy penalty on the followings hits or the critical hit rate isn't the same for all hits. Then I saw this thread and it seems to me like there could be some truth to it. I hope we further test this a bit.

IMO, it doesn't make much sense, or rather, it doesn't seem to be fair that for those WS that has ftp depended on tp get that bonus on only the first hit, yet ws with acc based on tp has acc bonus applied to all hits (and if it applies to only the first hit, it seems pretty retarded since first hit already has acc bonus from being the first hit), and that critical hit bonus ws has those bonus applied to all hits. I believe it is either one way or another, that all hits has the same characteristic, or only the first hit.

God this is confusing....

Btw I am not talking about gorget what so ever, this is a completely difference discussion.

[Nameless]

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry.

But as for this:


He was pretty clear, he did 100 guillotines, 129/300 of the secondary hits landed, 43% of those hits landed.

And yea, that's what I get too.

It is pretty clear that 100 guillotine should result in 400 possible hits (I hope he didn't have any DA gears on). And aside from the first 100 hits being 91%, he landed 129 of the possible 300 hits based on his read from the tp return. I don't think he mean that he connected all 4 hits 43% of the time, that wouldn't be saying anything, thought 129/300 is pretty clear.

[Starr]

Yeah the Guillotine Accuracy patch.. what did they do? I thought they decreased it because the 1 DEX=1 Accuracy made it too good or something. Might be better to use another WS but I would love to see say 400 Drakesbane/KJ/RR with A. No neck B. Chivalrous Chain C. Peacock Charm D. WS Gorget before we say anything is correct about WS gorgets.

[Nameless]

Not only that, do we even know that the 2nd to 4th hit of drakesbane or raging rush get the critical hit bonus from tp or not. I am pretty sure they can critical, just don't know if they get the bonus critical. Also, are we sure for those WS that has ftp based on tp like KJ that the 2nd and 3rd hit are just 1.0 ftp instead of being the same as the first hit?

I think the test we have had used to determine that all following hits are 1.0 ftp is on single hit WS, and it could just be that any addition hits from DA are 1.0 ftp, but not necessarily the additional hits from multi hit ws. It would be interesting to see and can probably explain why KJ is so powerful, since at 200% it is 1.25 ftp, and if all hits follow that ftp, it could do surprising damage, which has been reported.

And if the theory is wrong, that only the first hit's ftp is based on tp, then it would be interesting to see if the critical hit ws work the same way. I am betting that the 10% critical hit % only apply to the first hit while the rest of the hits critical rate is only depended on your natural critical hit rate.

How we gonna test this I don't know....

[Starr]

They are not terribly hard to test it's just who wants to spend forever testing them? Seeing as a sample size of under 500 will always be scrutinized here.

[Fwahm]

I don't have much time on FFXI right now due to preparing for college, but I wanted to clarify a few things about my test.

First, Hookah is correct on the secondary hits.

Second, I did not have any DA gear on, nor a WS gorget.

I won't have enough time for an additional testing any time soon, so I was mainly hoping this might precipitate some other testing on the subject.

[Starr]

oh right...