Zhaylom Remants question...

[ringthree]

I prefer unlocking the RDM. BRD seems like a waste.

Do what you want /shrug. BRD needs the ranged slot more than RDM needs anything else really.

[Wulfgang]

With TH3 (TH4 if opening chest has Rad) at the opening room on 2F always, I've only seen not enough cells once in over 2 years. We always unlock me(WAR), MNK, and RDM in the same order every time so cells are second nature.

Hi Scorp!

[Fridell]

Well I thought it was something like not wasting a Ranged Cell, but I didn't see it coming still. I take my chance to dupe Ranged if we need, to make the RDM unlock instead of BRD.

[Uzor]

We usually always get at least 2 ranged cells from 2F, so usually we do melee > melee > RDM on full unlock, as you could dupe 2 ranged cells in this case and give one of them to the BRD either way.

[Tomiko]

settle for 6f+boss

Kinda off topic, but how exactly is this done? The groups I've gone with have never had enough time to do both.

[tymora]

I don't think this is the case.

Hanyoko is correct. Back/waist are 100% x2 drops from those specially designated mobs, so you always get at least 8. Some extra may drop from Mamool.

[tymora]

Kinda off topic, but how exactly is this done? The groups I've gone with have never had enough time to do both.

If you post what your group had been doing, I am sure people here can suggest improvements to allow you to do both.

[Shassira]

Kinda off topic, but how exactly is this done? The groups I've gone with have never had enough time to do both.

ZR is actualy one of the easier zones to full clear (at least for 35 NMs) with boss. If you add 15 drops it's way more complicated, although possible. Regardless, it's not really useful to constantly do 15 NMs, so no reason to worry if you can't do that.

Thing with ZR is that everything can be planned and there is very little left to luck save for rings and ranged which normaly won't affect you.

As well, this is a zone that is perfect for 5 or 6 people and where more than that can seriously affect your chances unless you manage well. All you have to do is follow a strict pattern:

TL;DR version: Find a way for your group to control Frog Chorus and you will do it with extra time left.

Clear inner rooms in 1F trying to evade non droper mobs if you are able to locate them (which means using a dat swap normaly). If not, just rely on luck. These mobs are weak and the difference between perfect pulls and full clear of inner rooms can be a matter of just 3 minutes which you won't really miss when you have practice.

Port NE, clear the lizards as fast as possible, kill mamool and pop duper NM. Find a way to control charmga that works for all frog NMs; this will depend on your group. For us, it's a head butt spaming blu with double march, for others it can be just kill as fast as possible. Whatever you do, the trick for this and all NMs is to get charmed as few times as possible and that is all there is to ZR.

Then just selectively pull from each room until you get two mobs that drop, which will net you 4 unlocked people. If you cannot locate the correct dropers you may have to kill three more mobs in each room in worst case. All you have to know is how they are distributed. From the initial set of 3 mobs, there is one that drops only and the rest are fake. Then, unless i'm mistaken now (haven't done ZR in a bit), the bunch on the left side of each room has 2 dropers and 1 fake. Repeat for each room. Some people have a rdm pull from other rooms or do whatever to make haste, we just make everyone move.
Do this process counter clock wise from NE room and end up where Jakko's pop is, pop it, kill it, port up.

Then clear the whole melee mamool side (I think that's west? Whatever gets you to the south teleport) which drop a ton of cells. You'll get enough cells for HP, MP and stats to unlock an alliance by the time you reach the door. Then there's the frog that pops which will spam you with HP and MP. Kill it and have someone on the north teleport by the time it's dead.

Next floor just go to the right door, knock it down, go up.

Finaly make your thf or whoever is able to do so sac the annoying gear room so everyone can pass (some will be able to survive), kill the frog with whatever strategy you have, make your sac move to teleport as frog dies, go up.

Kill frog, once again your most important thing here is to control charmga. Get charmed multiple times and you'll run out of time. Pull chariot if you are able to survive it or just sac pull it. We don't bother, I just sac it down and let the THF and MNK tear the gears down. Your RDM is the best puller in this floor. Finaly just kill the chariot normaly, which btw has a ton of HP ~.~

Kill boss, he's very easy.



My group handles frogs with "slow" kills and only put mnk and blu on them, with double march. Basicly, as blu, all I do is head butt the frog till it dies. I don't bother to time it with any TP move at all, just try to predict the "stun wears off" message to stun again. This serves double purpose, as our mnk barely gets attacked and won't stop to cast at all. With a little practice, it's normal to have frogs that never land a frog chorus, but ofcourse, sometimes one messes up, so we keep the thf away to kite us in case stuff happens. Controlling Frog Chorus is the only important thing. You don't even need to make perfect pulls or well traced plans to do 5F/6F/Boss. You might need this if you plan on doing one of the 15's though.

As for boss, we place THF and MNK on it and it goes down decently fast. As blu all I do is watch how my mages heal, use diamond hide (or just lay back if we have a SCH!) and keep my finger on Jettatura for awesome Discoid stuns every minute-ish. (Actualy I go in and out to disseverment and cannonball from afar if we are a bit low on time )

[Tomiko]

Sounds pretty similar to what we do but we don't have anyone that uses dat swaps (that I know of), so that would help a bit I would imagine. For 2nd floor we skip the first mobs then kill the set of 3 til 2 drop cells (as mentioned) before moving on. We haven't used Blu that I know of, but it seems like that helps alot with charms as well. I usually save tp to stun ws them.

Thanks for the info/advice!

[Xerlic]

I go RDM/DRK in my group solely to stun Chorus and Discoid. Not getting charmed is the key to being able to do both frogs + boss since it's entirely a time issue.

[ringthree]

I go RDM/DRK in my group solely to stun Chorus and Discoid. Not getting charmed is the key to being able to do both frogs + boss since it's entirely a time issue.

There are some days when it is basically impossible to stun a Chorus, but even then if you have a well trained group you can still do both frogs and the boss.

Just did one today where the frogs got off 2 or 3 chorus on the 5th floor and 2 more on 6th and we killed the boss and had 20 minutes left.

As for needing to stun Discoid? I would rather have a RDM that can paralyna on the boss. But to each their own.

[Lekotas]

No That thing makes your thf incredibly gimp, it makes me sad. Swaping it at the end of NMs is the only time i like to see a thf with it ; ;

The only time I've ever been screwed on cells in Zhay is if a) the THF fails to actually TH something, by being dead/not paying attention, or if someone lots a cell they aren't supposed to and uses it. In eithercase, Arthrs is right. Make sure the thief is wielding thief's knife jic. It doesn't matter how much it gimps thf's dmg. A thf's purpose in salvage is Treasure Hunter.

My group now goes with MNK MNK COR BRD WHM RDM + THF and sometimes a SAM. One monk holds TP for Shoulder tackle, while the other goes all out on frogs. I've found this really to be the most effective method for our group.

[Julian]

A thf's purpose in salvage is Treasure Hunter.

Um, yeah, no...

"Primary" role? Maybe, but I believe a good THF that's also adding on decent damage can really help speed a run up.

[Argettio]

Um, yeah, no...

"Primary" role? Maybe, but I believe a good THF that's also adding on decent damage can really help speed a run up.

Yes when you only have 1-3 primary Tanks/DD, then a THF is going to make up a reasonable amount of your damage over the course of the run.

And once you have the cells you need then gogo DD THF.

But when you are farming cells on the first few floors TH3(4) is far more important than the THF using his best weapons imo

(NB: I don't believe you need to main hand the Knife for it to work)

[Julian]

Yes when you only have 1-3 primary Tanks/DD, then a THF is going to make up a reasonable amount of your damage over the course of the run.

And once you have the cells you need then gogo DD THF.

But when you are farming cells on the first few floors TH3(4) is far more important than the THF using his best weapons imo

(NB: I don't believe you need to main hand the Knife for it to work)

I never said anything against this. Shit is situational, the thief should know when he should be using the knife and when he shouldn't. I was only responding to the "Thief is only a TH whore" comment.

[Argettio]

I never said anything against this. Shit is situational, the thief should know when he should be using the knife and when he shouldn't. I was only responding to the "Thief is only a TH whore" comment.

And I was backing you up, I was giving my view on how THF should play.

[Julian]

Note to self: don't post after waking up,

[Velecic]

Just a note since I didn't see anyone else mention it, I have done something slightly different over the past months in Zhayolm, but keep in mind I usually enter with 7-10, typically 8ish. On the first floor, when clearing the inside rooms with the 100% drops x4 cells, I lot and hold all 4 of the SJs after the first one from box (usually goes to sam) and hang onto them till we clear the NE room on 2F. If we get enough Ranged/Rings (2 drops of each, 4 total) we dupe the subs giving everyone (up to 9 anyways) SJs, which comes in really handy later in the run. It's NEVER necessary to dupe bodys (all the cell dropping mobs on 2F can drop it, even if you get really hosed I've never gotten less than 4-5 bodies while getting other cells), and we typically unlock MNK MNK RDM, sometimes WHM instead of rdm (whm/sch gets more out of ja than rdm does if we don't get enough opacus) since mnks need SJ & magic anyways, as does RDM. Everyone does it differently but I just thought I'd mention one trick I started doing recently. It's always nice for the THF to have SJ+Shadows for pulling etc later on, and we don't have any trouble full-clearing zhay every time even farming extra gear for people.

Like above posters said, zhayolm remnants is about 2 things : controlling Frog Chorus, and efficiency. Only kill mobs you need to, sleep those you don't (non-droppers), move quickly, and send someone to porters in advance so you don't lose time after you kill what you need to (obviously not someone essential for whatever the last fight/fights are for that floor).

Oh, and thirding what above posters have said about Thief's Knife. Yes THF is a DD in salvage, I have a very well-geared THF, but I use the Knife when drops matter (2F, NMs, gears if you care about alexandrite, boss) and swap it off when it doesn't (1F etc), and yours should too. THF performs very well DDing in some situations, and in others it doesn't. Situational, etc.

[Baelwulf]

The way I do ZR is this:

We fully unlock 2 melees + the RDM for the purposes of the F5 Madame.

F1: Farm 4 inside rooms for cells, after 4th inside room we go through to the hallway between the second and third bugard rooms edit: and farm the bugards from the second room while the THF works his/her way to the northeastern porter. Typically this gives everyone access to SJs and magic.

F2: Kill entire room that we warp into, kill Mamool. No one uses any rings, ranged or bodies till we determine what we're in need of. IE: 4 Rings, 2 Ranged, 0/1 Bodys: pop Ranged; 2 Rings, 4 Ranged, 0/1 bodies: pop Rings; 4 Rings, 4 Ranged, 1 Body, pop Body.
After clearing that room we continue in a clockwise fashion around the circuit, killing enough mobs in each room to get 2 cell-dropping mobs, finishing off with the Card Imp in the NW chamber.

F3: Clear the west and south chambers entirely, this gets everyone fully unlocked on stats. When we pull the rampart at the end, one of two things happen: If we have 3 people fully unlocked the THF begins working his/her way to the Northern Teleporter; if we got screwed on cells the THF joins in and we go up the southern porter. We then kill the rampart and the frog.

F4: Skip the frog and go up
F5: If we had 3 people fully unlocked and went up north, or 1 person unlocked and went up south, we kill the frog that's spawned. We do this by having the THF PD+Flee and collect all the gears in the first room we come to, and die at the top of the stairs leading towards the frog room while the rest of the group waits down the stairs. Once the THF is dead and the gears have moved off, the 2 melee start in on the frog while the WHM raises the THF. After the frog is dead we sneak around and go up.

F6: The F6 Madame should have been popped by this strategy, so we kill that. The THF then sacrifice pulls the chariot to a nearby corner(SW I think? Can't remember map layout here). We clear the gears and then clear the chariot. Melees with TP-whoring 2hrs 2hr this chariot(ie, the MNK).

F7: Clear the boss. Melees like SAMs and DRKs use their 2hrs on this guy. Melees position themselves directly in front of the chariot to encourage diffusion ray. Mages position themselves to get hit by discoid but not discharge/inertia stream. When Discoid goes off the BRD + RDM both Curaga 2. WHM is responsible for most supplemental healing, and the BRD + RDM split up status cures.

It takes a fairly well disciplined/geared group to do this, and I have found that MNKs are less than ideal for this particular run. We usually run MNK + DRK + WHM + BRD + RDM + THF in this zone and finish the entire route with < 5 minutes to spare. We do have a Gjallarhorn BRD, and I'm not sure how well this strategy would work for us without it though.

Edit:
The F3 North Madame, and the F4 Madames, both drop the items you want from them 100% of the time, so we dedicate a run to them when someone has a 35 that corresponds to it.

[Shassira]

A thf's purpose in salvage is Treasure Hunter.

No, simply no.
I know Julian up here already went for this one, but I can't let this one pass.

See why:

My group now goes with MNK MNK COR BRD WHM RDM + THF and sometimes a SAM.

That's 7 people and sometimes 8. When your groups run constantly between 5 to 6 people, your THF better be more than a TH whore. Believe it or not, a good THF can destroy anything in any area except for the horrible place Arrapago is. ZR is a playground for a good THF geared as a DD just as much as SS is heaven for it with so many gears around. Let's not even mention Bhaflau where everything save for chigoes is piercing weak. Why limit your THF to a pathetic job that isn't even needed?

Swap in thief's knife before you kill an NM, remove it after. There is no need to do anything else with that stupid useless piece. Believing otherwise is just not knowing a decent THF.

Just for reference, a group I love for Bhaflau is MNK, COR, THF, WHM, RDM, BRD and you can be sure we nerf LBC without problems here and our THFs stand up front meleeing LBC like any other tank.

I have full trust in my group's MNK and THF though and I will be the first to admit that in general I do not assume a THF is capable to stand ground because most people think like you seem to do. Likewise, I wouldn't assume that every mnk is capable to tank a boss without sharing hate.

Finaly, Heartsnatcher + TK makes me want to remove my eyes.