What's Better?

[Argettio]

When Acc is capped Ancient can be far better than both Fort and Chiv depending on dDEX (definately so for a mithra with EBody/Byakkos/Rajas).

True if the DEX is going in a build to get a decent crit rate then Ancient wins all round.

But not knowing the mob/rest of his gear etc, I ordered them based on their stand alone performance.

[Starr]

How much crit rate do you think it would take to beat 7 Attack or 3 STR? I dunno if 1% would, maybe 2?

[Neosutra]

I've always wondered why allakatards like you make it a point defending destroyers when they are proven multiple times which is better in which situation. I mean, do you fail that much that you can't afford a pair of NQ Hades Sainti ? Destroyers are not the best weapon, they're not even the second nor the third best .. nor the fourth best.

Hades sainti +1 > your face.

That's some nice math you have there backing up your claim.

Oh wait, you just restated your point again w/o any evidence.

Stop trying to compare destroyers to hades+1 and 8 other slots, the comparison is

1 base damage and 9 acc vs. 6 crit hit and slightly less delay.

I know you keep trying to mix and match the other slots to make hades seem infinitely better, but no amount of hand waving will work.

We already stated that hades and destroyers were very close (favoring destroyers in some cases, hades in others), and stated that I already own both. However the dumbass comment that started this entire thing was your buddy Mdkuser's claim that hades+1 will beat destroyers -even when acc is capped-. He was promptly called on his retardedness, and it should have ended there.

However, you and him come riding to the rescue of retards everywhere, ignoring the original stupid comment he made that started all this, and just restating over and over that HS+1 beats destroyers.

No one here is stating that hades+1 wont beat destroyers in places where your acc isnt capped and having a pair doesnt allow you to mix and match a few other pieces for a good setup. We are simply arguing the blind stupidity of such comments as "HD+1 are better than destroyers even with capped acc".

Friends dont defend friends when they are retarded, they sit them down and let them know they are retarded, so take your friend Mdkuser out back and beat it into him, because he is making you both look MORE retarded than usual, and that is saying something.

[Despain]

Destroyers aren't good? Say it ain't so.

[Argettio]

How much crit rate do you think it would take to beat 7 Attack or 3 STR? I dunno if 1% would, maybe 2?

Good question, I could make a stab at the maths but doubt I would get it right, far too tired to think.

[pchan]

1% crit will never beat 7 att 3 str. 7 attack is at worst 1% damage increase, 3 str in another 1%..

[Starr]

What about 2%?

[Cream Soda]

That's some nice math you have there backing up your claim.

Oh wait, you just restated your point again w/o any evidence.

Stop trying to compare destroyers to hades+1 and 8 other slots, the comparison is

1 base damage and 9 acc vs. 6 crit hit and slightly less delay.

I know you keep trying to mix and match the other slots to make hades seem infinitely better, but no amount of hand waving will work.

We already stated that hades and destroyers were very close (favoring destroyers in some cases, hades in others), and stated that I already own both. However the dumbass comment that started this entire thing was your buddy Mdkuser's claim that hades+1 will beat destroyers -even when acc is capped-. He was promptly called on his retardedness, and it should have ended there.

However, you and him come riding to the rescue of retards everywhere, ignoring the original stupid comment he made that started all this, and just restating over and over that HS+1 beats destroyers.

No one here is stating that hades+1 wont beat destroyers in places where your acc isnt capped and having a pair doesnt allow you to mix and match a few other pieces for a good setup. We are simply arguing the blind stupidity of such comments as "HD+1 are better than destroyers even with capped acc".

Friends dont defend friends when they are retarded, they sit them down and let them know they are retarded, so take your friend Mdkuser out back and beat it into him, because he is making you both look MORE retarded than usual, and that is saying something.

I like how Pchan skipped replying to this one.

[Argettio]

1% crit will never beat 7 att 3 str. 7 attack is at worst 1% damage increase, 3 str in another 1%..

It was 3STR or 7att, not 'and'.

But if the attack alone beats the crit rate then it doesn't matter.

[pchan]

It was 3STR or 7att, not 'and'.

But if the attack alone beats the crit rate then it doesn't matter.

Assuming 7 level difference, 330 defense, dia II :

@400 base attack, 7 att is 3% increase is damage (pdif)
@450 2.4%
@500 1.1%
@550 2%
@600 1.76%
@650 1.56%
@700 1%

Now for crit, assuming starting from 10% (unlikely that 4 dex gives 2% in this case)

The increase from going from 10% to 12% crit is (12%* critpdif + 88%* pdif)/(10%*critpdif+90%*pdif) :

@400 base attack 2% crit gives +1.9% damage
@450 +1.6%
@500 +1.4%
@550 +1.3%
@600 +1.17%
@700 +1%

assuming starting from 15% crit (more likely of you stack dex)

@400 base attack 2% crit gives +1.82% damage
@450 +1.54%
@500 +1.38%
@550 +1.29%
@600 +1.14%
@700 +0.82%

[Starr]

So pretty much would have to be at dDEX cap-3 for Ancient Torque to beat Fort if you don't need the Accuracy? Also where does +3 STR land in terms of increase of damage?

[ringthree]

What about 2%?

Well, Pchan has side that 6% Crit doesn't beat 1 DMG and 9 Accuracy just above, so I am guessing they won't favor 2% over anything.

I am not making a judgment on that statement, I am just saying you might want to ask for a second opinion.

[pchan]

Well, Pchan has side that 6% Crit doesn't being 1 DMG and 9 Accuracy just above, so I am guessing they won't favor 2% over anything.

I am not making a judgment on that statement, I am just saying you might want to ask for a second opinion.

4% more critrate. Calculate your average pDIF. A crit is pDIF +1. Say you have 20% critrate pre-askar and you have a normal pDIF of 1 your average pDIF is .8*1+.2*2=1.2. A crit increases your pDIF to 2, so 4% extra crit results in a new average pDIF of .76*1+.24*2=1.24. Going from 1.2 to 1.24 is an increase of 3.3%.

divide by 2

Destroyers suck, by the way.[/b]

[Shinryuu]

You're completely off-the-charts idiotic, and I wonder how you manage to breathe, let alone type. Did you read but a single word of what you actually quoted? My hypothetical for the Askar thing was an extremely low pDIF. Y'know, the thing critrate increases? The thing you've never ever mentioned when it comes to critrate debates?

On Fort Torque/Ancient Torque for WAR GAX:
If you have uncapped accuracy, Ancient torque. If it's capped (or during for instance aggressor), Kubira beads and not Fort torque. However, somewhere inbetween, if you need only 6 ACC to cap, Fort suffices and will beat the other two.

[pchan]

You're completely off-the-charts idiotic, and I wonder how you manage to breathe, let alone type. Did you read but a single word of what you actually quoted? My hypothetical for the Askar thing was an extremely low pDIF. Y'know, the thing critrate increases? The thing you've never ever mentioned when it comes to critrate debates?

I did learn 2 read moron. I even made a table depending on attack.

[Despain]

Why are you so angry?

Anyway, Composite vs. Halcyon for Manta fishing in Kuftal?

[jimbobsonofgod]

For Expiacion -Delivers a twofold attack.- Modifiers: STR:30% ; INT:30%
Without pants
Str 57+42
Dex 63+18
INT 69+11
+5 Store TP
+40 acc on WS.

Which would be better?

Enkidu Subligar
DEF: 40 STR +4 DEX +4
"Store TP" +5 "Subtle Blow" +5

Or

Morrigan's Slops
DEF: 27 MP +25 STR +3 INT +10 MND +10
Enmity -2

[Knyghtmayre]

Man, that ignore list is a fucking amazing thing. It's like I get my own personal ban on whoever I want.

[Ramuhnub]

Why are you so angry?

Anyway, Composite vs. Halcyon for Manta fishing in Kuftal?

Either works.

[Yugl]

For Expiacion -Delivers a twofold attack.- Modifiers: STR:30% ; INT:30%
Without pants
Str 57+42
Dex 63+18
INT 69+11
+5 Store TP
+40 acc on WS.

Which would be better?

Enkidu Subligar
DEF: 40 STR +4 DEX +4
"Store TP" +5 "Subtle Blow" +5

Or

Morrigan's Slops
DEF: 27 MP +25 STR +3 INT +10 MND +10
Enmity -2

My WS Calc might be bugged at the moment (Found out I didn't set it up in a "nice" way for Non-Multi-Hit/Crit WS), but it's coming up with Morrigans as doing more damage, which is kind of surprising because if I did this right and assuming full merits (200 + (.85*.9) + 10 [Trait] + 16% [Sushi] + 40 [Gear]), you're at 81.5% ACC. Again, might be buggy at the moment, but someone can look this over and maybe help confirm.