What's Better?

[Diogi]

For max damage at puddings, Antares + Harpy Shield or HQ staves with the gear listed below.

Wzd. Petasos +1
Phtm. Tathlum
Prudence Torque
Genie Weskit
Loquac. Earring
Moldavite Earring
Prism Cape
Zenith Mitts
Omega Ring
Snow Ring
Penitent's Rope
Morrigan's Slops
Cobra Crackows

[Nightfyre]

HQ staves

[Tsuko_Asura]

MAB+13? No way an HQ staff can compete with that.

[Diogi]

Max Elemental merits, max potency merits, max burst and freeze II btw...so lets say unresisted

[pchan]

Thief, FFXI, and other unimportant matters

Theorycrafting to suggest that sam is more tp efficient than monk.

This guy is also using

-wrong tp returns (I see 4.5 tp return again)
-purposely not gearing his monk with natural subtle blow gear (hades sainti / usukane hands / melee gloves (+1))
- no mention of penance
- wrong numbers for kick attacks : he gets 1.2 attack per fist while it's 2.25/2=1.125 per (because for him KA can proc on both fists ..)

If you redo his math with proper numbers ( 44 subtle blow, 1.125 att/fist, 4.9 base tp) you get that for his criteria, monk/nin feeds 199 tp per minutes (233 sam/war), and that's not counting the -25% tp given from penance ..

[Byrthnoth]

enemy gain your (base tp +3)* subtle blow

edit : also destroyers return a base tp of 4.9, not 4.5.

floor (4.9+3)*.58 = 4.5TP
If it's ceiling, then monsters get 4.6.

With Brutal/Kicks factored in, I get 4.34TP/sec fed for Salvage MNK.
With Brutal/Pole and /WAR for Salvage SAM, I get 4.67TP/sec fed. With just Brutal and capped Haste from /DRG, I get 4.80TP/sec fed for Salvage SAM.


So with Monk gear that's pretty standard for endgame monks doing Salvage (Black Belt, Rajas ring, Hades Sainti, Usukane Gote), it's not unusual for them to be more TP/sec efficient than SAMs with comparable gear. Even if they prefer Destroyers over Hades and don't have Gotes yet, (7.9*.7*2*1.05 Double Attacks + 7.9*.7*.15 Kicks) / ([351*.4]/60) = 5.3 TP/sec, which still isn't monstrous compared to SAM's 4.67/4.80 TP/sec.
Good MNK gives 3.88TP/sec -> SAM gives 4.28TP/sec -> Good MNK with Destroyers and no Gotes gives 5.3TP/sec -> Brown Belt sealess MNK gives 5.31TP/sec.
The lack of Haste, Double attack, and Kick merits reduces the last monk's TP fed enough to counter the lack of Subtle Blow. Well, that or I did it wrong. Trivia to be sure, you can make a pretty solid Subtle Blow build on MNK without sacrificing much with Hades Sainti +1, Enkidu Harness, Usu Gotes, Rajas, and Black Belt. That puts you at 49 Subtle Blow.


If you're really having trouble with Frogs and think TP gain is a big issue, the solution is to merit Penance 5/5. That way you don't gimp your damage/killspeed and your monks give even less TP. If you're still having trouble after that, make someone level BLU and just stunlock it.

[Nightfyre]

Max Elemental merits, max potency merits, max burst and freeze II btw...so lets say unresisted

Doesn't change the answer, HQ staves. 1.15 multiplier to total damage vs 13 MAB, HQ staves win hands down. Tsuko's just trolling/being sarcastic.

EDIT: 20 MAB in gear + 32 in traits + 10 from merits = 62, Antares/Harpy is an 8% increase in damage. HQ staves are a flat 15% increase.

[Max™]

How much TP do I give with 227/190 delay katana's and +11 total subtle blow?

(3 offhand Tsukumo, 1 Coeurl gorget, 5 Rajas, 2 Merits so far)

I had the math for subtle in my head and all that Nins get a while back when I randomly got this: Peiste Belt +1 - Bahamut - FFXIAH.com synthed for me, and was going to see how well a crazy Ninja friend of mine would do against a UFO last year.

[pchan]

Unless I'm forgetting something i find 4.5

TP return from ( (227+190)/2 reduced by 35%) : 4.1

(4.1+3)*(1-36%)=4.54 tp / hit

[Byrthnoth]

Depends on your Haste total and support as far as TP/sec.

Assuming you're NIN/WAR wearing 20% Haste and are solo (no support) with Suppa/Brutal and not wearing AF+1 body:
35% DW, 20% Haste, 36 Subtle Blow, 417 combined delay, 15% Double Attack.
135 delay per hand, 3.6 seconds per attack round, 2.3 contacts per attack round, 4.6 base TP/hit, 4.8TP/hit for the monster. 11.04 TP per attack round, 3.07 TP per second. With double Marches, it becomes 4.9 TP per second.

(Base TP + 3) * (1-subtle blow) * (Contacts per Attack round) / (Seconds per Attack round) gives TP per second.

That was a particularly complicated one.

[Diogi]

Thanks Nightfyre

[Gergall]

If you're really having trouble with Frogs and think TP gain is a big issue, the solution is to merit Penance 5/5. That way you don't gimp your damage/killspeed and your monks give even less TP. If you're still having trouble after that, make someone level BLU and just stunlock it.

Not "trouble", just thinking about the holy grail (5F+6F+Chariot) which my group isn't really close to...yet. We're fine for 5F+6F.

We have 2x MNK with 5/5 Penance and a potential BLU as well. However, the presence of these things does not really answer the question as to whether Footwork would even further reduce the number of TP moves the Madame is able to use.

[Max™]

Usually use Mirke (Acc +10/Dual Wield +3), but ty that helped me figure out what I was missing on the math about subtle blow, 25 base + 9 gear + 5 merits gives 4.6 per hit.

[FailureMidgard]

This guy is also using

-wrong tp returns (I see 4.5 tp return again)
-purposely not gearing his monk with natural subtle blow gear (hades sainti / usukane hands / melee gloves (+1))
- no mention of penance
- wrong numbers for kick attacks : he gets 1.2 attack per fist while it's 2.25/2=1.125 per (because for him KA can proc on both fists ..)

If you redo his math with proper numbers ( 44 subtle blow, 1.125 att/fist, 4.9 base tp) you get that for his criteria, monk/nin feeds 199 tp per minutes (233 sam/war), and that's not counting the -25% tp given from penance ..

Wait what, he is wrong with 4.5...it should be 4.9, that UPS the tp fed by monk.

Here we go though:

MNK/NIN : Destroyers, 4.9 tp/hit, 348 delay. Haste 25% + 35% = 60%, Kick chance of 15% per round. DA chance of 5% per hit. Subtle Blow: 20% passive, 5% rajas, 5% usu, 5% bb = 35%, 42% with Hades, which lowers dmg done.
Adjusted delay is 139.2 (2.32sec), swings per round is 2.15*1.05=2.2575
In 60 seconds, the mnk gets 60/2.32=25.862 rounds, 25.862*2.2575=58.383 hits, 58.383*7.9=461.2257 TP pre Subtle Blow.

SAM/WAR : Hagun, 11.5 tp/hit, 450 delay, Haste 22% + 35% = 57%. DA chance of 17%. Subtle Blow of 5%.
Adjusted delay is 193.5 (3.225sec), swings per round is 1.17
In 60 seconds, the sam gets 60/3.225=18.605 rounds, 18.605*1.17=21.768 hits, 21.768*14.5=315.636 pre Subtle Blow.

So, using the mnk without Hades, we now get 461.2257*.65=299.797 tp/min.
Using the sam, we get 315.636*.95=299.8542 tp/min.

For fun: 461.2257*.58=267.511, 299.8542*.9=269.868 These 2 numbers are the mnk now with Hades Sainti, and the sam with full Usu without adjusting haste. If I actually adjust the haste down, the sam will drop under the mnk for TP fed.

Furthermore, all my numbers assumed dusk gloves+1, vbelt, wturban for the sam. Your average sam (that in my opinion still outdamages every monk) will likely be anywhere from 1 to 4% haste under what I listed, which lowers the TP fed, and is probably what most people are more used to seeing in parses/etc/etc. I know my sam is still in swift belt and NQ dusk, and I've yet to see a mnk that can even compete dmg wise.

If you are really concerned with how much TP you feed the mob, your best bet is sam/nin using full usukane, picking up another 15% subtle blow over my original calculations. Also, if you assume you have 1 mnk and 1 sam in the run, and want to limit TP on a chariot say, your best bet is to use penance - that is, have the sam solo tank, and the mnk can sit on the side and penance for the sam whenever it's up.


Back to my original claim, subtle blow keeps dual wield TP feeding in line with 2handers, it does NOT make it better. Penance is the -only- tool mnk has that makes it better for TP limitation.

[Byrthnoth]

Not "trouble", just thinking about the holy grail (5F+6F+Chariot) which my group isn't really close to...yet. We're fine for 5F+6F.

We have 2x MNK with 5/5 Penance and a potential BLU as well. However, the presence of these things does not really answer the question as to whether Footwork would even further reduce the number of TP moves the Madame is able to use.

If you're using the same Subtle Blow and hitting slower and harder, then yes you'll give less TP. However, slowing down your kill is not going to let you avoid more charms. You still have to do the damage to kill the frog, and I doubt Footwork is better on a damage/TP given basis (not that you could trick me into calculating it.) Just bring a BLU if you're really having trouble with Charmga.

You could also enter on Darksday. That way the frogs will take 2x damage and the battles will go faster.

[pchan]

Wait what, he is wrong with 4.5...it should be 4.9, that UPS the tp fed by monk.

Retarded, wrong math is wrong I don't care if some dude made some math that were at the advantage at the monks, if he did that everything else is probably false too. Now back to your lolmaths, but you are just doing the same bullshit as him.

Here we go though:

MNK/NIN : Destroyers, 4.9 tp/hit, 348 delay. Haste 25% + 35% = 60%, Kick chance of 15% per round. DA chance of 5% per hit. Subtle Blow: 20% passive, 5% rajas, 5% usu, 5% bb = 35%, 42% with Hades, which lowers dmg done.
Adjusted delay is 139.2 (2.32sec), swings per round is 2.15*1.05=2.2575
In 60 seconds, the mnk gets 60/2.32=25.862 rounds, 25.862*2.2575=58.383 hits, 58.383*7.9=461.2257 TP pre Subtle Blow.

Bolded is the common retarded statement spread by prehistoric monks (and you, no wonder you beat prehistoric monks). Aside from that, you assume best haste gear for SAM, ill assume best gear for monk too (hades sainti +1) which is 2 more subtle blow and actually is 44 total subtle blow and 349 delay.


Your swing per round is not 2.2575, it is 2.25 exactly (100 rounds = 200 normal punchs, plus 10 double attack and 15 kicks, total 225).

In 60 seconds the monk gives = (4.9+3)*(3600/139.2)*(2.25/2)=458.38 TP given pre subtle blow (you find 461).


With 44 subtle blow (= top non prehistoric monks) you get : 256 TP given per minute.
with 42 subtle blow (= modern monk) : a bit more : 265 TP/minute


Oh yeah we're are very far from your numbers, and the 299 sam.

Furthermore, all my numbers assumed dusk gloves+1, vbelt, wturban for the sam. Your average sam (that in my opinion still outdamages every monk) will likely be anywhere from 1 to 4% haste under what I listed, which lowers the TP fed, and is probably what most people are more used to seeing in parses/etc/etc. I know my sam is still in swift belt and NQ dusk, and I've yet to see a mnk that can even compete dmg wise.

I hate it when people do the math about soemthing and say "oh sorry I assume this but it's actually beneficing the other side". I mean do the maths, or don't do it.

Also, if you assume you have 1 mnk and 1 sam in the run, and want to limit TP on a chariot say, your best bet is to use penance - that is, have the sam solo tank, and the mnk can sit on the side and penance for the sam whenever it's up.

rofl, the best way is dual monks btw (and a /cor for monks roll if you are really worried)

Back to my original claim, subtle blow keeps dual wield TP feeding in line with 2handers, it does NOT make it better. Penance is the -only- tool mnk has that makes it better for TP limitation.

your conclusion : you feed less TP than 2004 monks.

[Gergall]

EDIT: How do you get 4.9 for destroyers? I am plugging 348 into this formula from wiki:

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]
5 + [(348-180) * 6.5 / 270]
5 + [168*6.5/270]
5 + 4
9
9 divided by 2 fists = 4.5 per fist

Can anyone please help me out? I'm sorry, I am sure it has been explained 10000 times

I doubt Footwork is better on a damage/TP given basis (not that you could trick me into calculating it.)

I want to try, just let me know if this looks correct:

With destroyers, 4.5 TP is gained per fist.
Therefore, monster gains 7.5 per fist.
With subtle blow capped, that's 3.7 gained by the mob per fist.
DMG is 35 Base + 18 (Destroyers) = 53
DMG / TP = 53/3.7 =14.3 dmg per tp given

When you use Footwork, the game (according to wiki) uses an artificially reduced value of enemy TP gain of 9.3 which is then affected by subtle blow.
Subtle blow brings it down to 4.6 per hit.
DMG is 35 Base + 30 (Dune Boots) + 18 (Footwork bonus) = 83
DMG / TP = 83/4.6 =18.0 dmg per tp given

You could also enter on Darksday. That way the frogs will take 2x damage and the battles will go faster.

Awesome, did not know that, just looked it up. Very cool thanks!

BTW I apologize for coming in here, asking for advice, and then refuting the advice repeatedly. I know what a jerk move that is. Basically what happened was that I didn't know much about Footwork and Subtle Blow and was having trouble understanding how it all fit together. As this discussion progressed I tried to follow along and learned a bit and the more I learned, the more convinced I have become that Footwork might be good at Madames.

[pchan]

EDIT: How do you get 4.9 for destroyers? I am plugging 348 into this formula from wiki:

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]
5 + [(348-180) * 6.5 / 270]
5 + [168*6.5/270]
5 + 4
9
9 divided by 2 fists = 4.5 per fist

Can anyone please help me out? I'm sorry, I am sure it has been explained 10000 times


.

TP return works like dual wield, you need to plug the total delay / 2 in the formula and divide the tp return by 2.

[Andradi]

No CoP so no Swift or Rajas

Get to ranking up in campaign, when you get rajas/brutal/echporia add in a Rose Strap and /SAM and bam, true 6-hit.

[FailureMidgard]

Bolded is the common retarded statement spread by prehistoric monks (and you, no wonder you beat prehistoric monks). Aside from that, you assume best haste gear for SAM, ill assume best gear for monk too (hades sainti +1) which is 2 more subtle blow and actually is 44 total subtle blow and 349 delay.

I've never actually cared enough to look over the math arguing on those 2, but I trust everyone else's opinion more than yours, so I went with it. Also, why is Hades Sainti+1 your endgame gear choice? Let's go with Amano and Spharai, or is your relic so bad you'd actually choose 9 SB over it? lol.

Your swing per round is not 2.2575, it is 2.25 exactly (100 rounds = 200 normal punchs, plus 10 double attack and 15 kicks, total 225).

I thought a kick could proc a DA fist swing, was that incorrect? My bad if so.

With 44 subtle blow (= top non prehistoric monks) you get : 256 TP given per minute.
with 42 subtle blow (= modern monk) : a bit more : 265 TP/minute

Oh yeah we're are very far from your numbers, and the 299 sam.

Oh right, your top mnk that excludes the true top2 weapons in favor of what you consider the 3rd best, though most everyone else considers destroyers 3rd...

I hate it when people do the math about soemthing and say "oh sorry I assume this but it's actually beneficing the other side". I mean do the maths, or don't do it.

If X>Y and Y>Z, then X>Z
If Mnk tp fed > Sam TP fed with 22 haste and Sam TP fed with 22 haste > Sam TP fed with 19 haste, then Mnk tp fed > Sam TP fed with 19 haste.
This is a very basic and simple logical argument, I'm sorry you can't comprehend it. If you assume the best case for something, and it -STILL LOSES- then you can conclusively say that when it doesn't have the best case, it loses by more.

rofl, the best way is dual monks btw (and a /cor for monks roll if you are really worried)

Mnk's roll helps a sam with a mnk in the party more than a mnk (your stupid mnk goes past cap on an unlucky roll with mnk as sj)

your conclusion : you feed less TP than 2004 monks.

Ok, so let's look back at your math. You assume the most absurd amounts of subtle blow possible for your monk, while sacrificing damage (since really you should be acc capped), including an item that's very likely rarer than Spharai to gain 9 more subtle blow. Meanwhile, you completely neglect that a 2hander can sub nin if they really care about TP fed (and to be honest, anyone who is worried about TP feeding probably should have their sams as /nin anyway), and neglect a sam that wears full usukane.

See, this is the opposite of what I said, and doesn't follow to a logical conclusion.

Anyway, like usual you are wrong, I'm not sure why I bother posting. I agree that a mnk decked out in Subtle Blow gear will feed barely less TP than a Sam/war completely ignoring the fact that Subtle Blow exists....which brings me back to my point that Subtle Blow brings dual wielders in line with 2handers...meaning if you are actually trying to TP limit, then you want 2handers going for subtle blow (Sam/nin with full usu and mnk's roll).