What's Better?

[Nightfyre]

Yeah, I got what you meant. I was just hoping simple math worked since otherwise this will get argued in circles forever until somebody actually sits down and works it out all the way through. Given a pretty heavy WS:TP enmity ratio, my order would basically be reversed then... Hauby +1 >= Homam > Avalon > Hydrabert when accuracy is uncapped and Hydrabert at least above Avalon when capped.

[Cream Soda]

Care to elaborate? Ideal gear sets for lowacc vs highacc mobs? Ideal merit gear? Focus up, focus down?

Well, will be debatable in situations where you're not capped w/ focus down and are capped w/ focus up, but let's say you're at a place and using pizza+1 and are at very high/capped acc before hades+1 then stick w/ destroyers.

[Shinryuu]

Can use Kaeko's enmity table for damage, you'd need to know average damage for melee hit and Atonement and you need to take care of the fact you swap in full enmity for Atonement and not for TP.

[Nightfyre]

The problem with that is it's potentially dependent on how much you're hitting for during TP phase, which potentially makes it dependent on your target.

[Raen Ryong]

Well, since I started this!

I'm going to ignore merits for both sides and I'll use my own sets for each (I use 3enm shield but we'll call it 4enm).

TP set, negating body, we shall assume has Enmity in the form of Homam Hands + 4enmity Shield, so +7 enmity.

Atonement set, we shall assume is using

-/4(shield)/-/-
8(baha mask)/Gorget*/2(hades+1)/2(hades+1)
6(ir hauberk)/4(ir hands)/mermaid(2)/hercules(3)
cerb(3)/trance(4)/ir(4)/ir(3)

* Gorget is there to ensure that Atonements land for 750 damage most of the time
= 45 total enmity

We'll use a level 85 target for purposes of CE/VE modifiers. I'm not 100% sure on how decimals are dealt with in these calculations so I am giving them to one decimal place.

Atonement 750 @ 45 enmity;

CE = 750 * (80/58 ) * 1.45 = 1500
VE = 750 * (240/58 ) * 1.45 = 4500
TE = 6000.

Damage per normal hit of say 20 damage which is quite high;

CE = 20 * (80/58 ) * 1.07 = 29.5~
VE = 20 * (240/58 ) * 1.07 = 88.6~
TE = 118.1

Joyeuse gets 6% TP per hit, so if we say that every 17 hits you get one Atonement,

118.1 x 17 = 2007.7

Which means that the ratio of Atonement enmity : TP enmity is roughly 3 : 1... noting 20 damage is quite high <_<

[Nightfyre]

Which far and away skews the results towards Hauby +1 and Homam without even bothering to math it out. I was looking at more like 10 damage/hit, which makes the ratio 6:1. Heh, I lose.

So, new question. Hauby +1 v Homam?

[Darlantan]

Thorny pretty much covered that (Hauby+1 vs Homam) a few pages ago.

[Raen Ryong]

1% TA is like 2% DA which won't boost TP gain on a Joyeuse significantly. I would generally always use Haubergeon +1 unless I was using Excalibur (and I could be wrong here, just theorising).

[FailureMidgard]

1% TA is like 2% DA which won't boost TP gain on a Joyeuse significantly. I would generally always use Haubergeon +1 unless I was using Excalibur (and I could be wrong here, just theorising).

1% TA is actually better than 2% DA on Joyeuse.

I agree with Haub+1 still though.

[Raen Ryong]

Not contradicting you, but how would you calculate the TA/DA on a Joyeuse? I could be asking a really dumb question, but Joyeuse's DA works differently. Would 1% TA > 2% DA because 2% DA has a chance to proc when Joyeuse's DA -doesn't-, whereas the 1% TA has a chance all of the time?

Or am I being dumb?

[FailureMidgard]

Not contradicting you, but how would you calculate the TA/DA on a Joyeuse? I could be asking a really dumb question, but Joyeuse's DA works differently. Would 1% TA > 2% DA because 2% DA has a chance to proc when Joyeuse's DA -doesn't-, whereas the 1% TA has a chance all of the time?

Or am I being dumb?

Works different how? I thought job traits always proc first.
Assuming a 45% proc on Joyeuse...

100 "rounds":
1 triple x3 = 3
44.55 (.45*99) Joyeuse x2 = 89.1
54.45 (.55*99) Single x1 = 54.45
3+89.1+54.45=146.55 swings

100 "rounds"
2 double x2 = 4
44.1 (.45*98 ) Joyeuse x2 = 88.1
53.9 (.55*98 ) Single x1 = 53.9
4+88.1+53.9 = 146 swings

[Raen Ryong]

That's the question really, I wasn't sure if weapon trait or job trait worked first

[rmtbot9000]

Stop eating sushi unless you're at an HNM or own a KC; start eating Pot-au-feu. This will help on lowering the overkill on ACC you have.

As for bucca > scouts; for pure damage yes, but please do not ignore the more consistent WS acc AGI+5 Racc+7 will add. this should overtake the STR bucca belt offers over scouts.

Hachi feet should own everything for WS damage; all the while adding Racc. For reference here is my current Slug gear.

I've always skipped over Pot au feu since I haven't seen any posts if the racc/ratk bonus is real or not, or big enough to notice, if you can vouch for it or direct me to a post with some data that would be amazing. I'll burn a stack on mamool tonight and parse it regardless.

@ Villian
sadly i'm Elvaan so my base AGI isnt quite 70 ; ; (fuck you mithra hoes! 77AGI my achin' ass!)
If we are talking about normal merit mobs like GC then yes your accuracy sounds right.

Damn it! Someone get to the bottom of this Bucca vs Scouts ><
now you got VZX involved! and I hope he is right because I want to continue being lazy and get my morgana's instead >.>;;

While we are at it... assuming bard + food, Skadi bazubands or Skote?

[Max™]

This is good to learn
118.1 x 17 = 2007.7
Just swinging for atonement tp gives 2k~ TE

493 CE, 1496 VE (decays)
493/10,000 CE, 1496/10,000 VE 17 hits
1500/10,000 CE, 4500/10,000 VE 1 Atonement for 750

[Argettio]

Based on the estimated 3:1 enmity ratio for TP/Atonement it might be advantageous to try and reduce the number of swings to 100TP. (following the 6hit / 5hit logic)

Rajas (only during TP) would take a Joyeuse from 17 hits to 16 hits. That's a ~6% increase in WS frequency.

You lose 4.5 accuracy (assuming Toreador's/Sniper+1 before switching to rajas) which is is 2.25% hit rate.

%increase from acc ring = % increase in hit rate / % hit rate before the acc ring

6% = 2.25%/X

So if we solve for X we will find the accuracy level where Toreador's/Sniper+1 gives exactly 6% increase.

X = 37.5%

So by my estimation, if you are over ~40% hit rate you should use rajas to in your TP set, as it will lead to more enmity, faster.

If you are using Woodsman or sniper it would change to 6% = 1.25%/X. X = 20%

Any one care to check that ^

[Raen Ryong]

Looks right to me! It's why I use Toreador's/Rajas and am not planning to get another Toreador's... at least not in a long time since I'm not entirely convinced 2x Toreador's is ever conclusively better than Toreador's/Rajas barring extreme micromanagement.

[Limlight]

The option I was providing was completely legitimate and didn't ignore the question like you did.

What is the best body to TP in and maintain enmity? It would be a high enmity body and using Dorado Sushi. No TP body is going to give you even close to the accuracy that Dorado Sushi provides, and Dorado Sushi and an enmity body combined is going to maintain a much higher amount of enmity than trying to hit with a Homam body. You could always use a Homam body with Dorado Sushi too, but that would not be maximizing enmity.

As always, it depends on what you are fighting and the situation. But what food would you use instead? If you are using tank food in a situation where you are worrying about a TP build then you might want to reconsider your gear/food priorities.

kinda why i like dorado + avalon to make tp.

[ringthree]

Enmity is negligable for hitting with TP though... you'll get far more overall enmity from the extra accuracy and hence landing more Atonements. You should be macroing in an enmity body for enmity actions and then TPing in a TP body so it's irrelevant <_<

EDIT: Accuracy body with accuracy food is the way to go if you're Atonement spamming on HNM, macroing in an enmity body as appropriate.

We can debate the relative merits of accuracy vs. enmity while TPing on PLD, but that was not the question that was asked. The question was asked about what to do while maintaining high enmity.

I have no problem at all with your conclusion that Atonement produces much more enmity than normal melee hits, but I don't know how you draw conclusions from that statement to show that one body is better than another. You need to take it a step further and compare the relative amount of WS's done on the mob. This is where you will find out if your conclusion is correct or not.

Unless, of course, I missed something.

[Pharaun]

I've always skipped over Pot au feu since I haven't seen any posts if the racc/ratk bonus is real or not, or big enough to notice, if you can vouch for it or direct me to a post with some data that would be amazing. I'll burn a stack on mamool tonight and parse it regardless.

Here's the BG thread where they talk about Pot-au-feu. It's down towards the end of the thread, and also has a link the Alla thread where VZX and some other people did the actual testing.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/74195...r-vs-ratk.html

edit: I pretty much never use sushi on Rng anymore, unless I'm fighting something really evasive and have no support. Pot-au-feu is my food of choice for the vast majority of situations, and yes it does give a very noticeable boost to both r.acc and r.atk.

[nitsuj]

COR/DRG joyeuse setup:

earrings:
Wyvern + Suppa
- or -
Wyvern + Brutal ?