What's Better?

[Taru Taru Stool]

I'm leveling NIN on my taru character for lvl 60 taru enm fights. I'm at 41 right now and since I have BLM gear from leveling it to 75 as my first job, would I be alright going NIN/RDM or NIN/BLM tanking from 41 to 60?

I know that once you get magic attack bonus II trait that NIN/BLM is a pretty destructive force until 65 or so when you are better off just DDing. I just don't know if it's worth it to forego katana skill in favor of nuking my way to 60. I was figuring it might be the way to go since Yonin tanking is what I'll be doing anyway for the enmity.

[Yugl]

well meant for aurum body where you're giving up nothing for it and it's faster.

You need 26sTP with 492 Delay (Standard) lance. You need 29sTP with Cletine.

Sub SAM (15)
Rajas (5)
Brutal Earring (1)

21sTP Total without body. Aurum will not make up for this difference. In addition, don't forget that there is a substantial base damage difference between these two weapons.

[Thunder]

/nin vs /sam talk

Played around with ffxicalc just now. Used azoth while /sam and azoth/joytoy while /nin(if that's not what I should be doing I'll gladly correct it and plug different numbers in).

With good haste gear, swift, turban, dusk feet/hands, skadi legs, azoth main hits every 3seconds for 7.2 tp. Azoth/joy hits for 5.6 tp.

Assuming you just hit 95% acc with dagger and joyeuse is 41.4 acc behind(0 merits) while letting both weapons swing in 600 seconds you have:
/sam: 200 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 7.2 tp = 1436.4tp
med: 600 seconds / 180 seconds = 3.33 * 60tp = ~200
/sam total: 1636.4 tp

/nin azoth: 115 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 5.6 tp = 642.3
/nin joy: 115 swings * .743 acc * 1.45 DA * 1.0275 brutal * 5.6 tp = 712.8
/nin total: 1355.1 tp

If you have merits, suppa, and MKD body, though:
/nin azoth: 127 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 5.4 tp = 684.0
/nin joy: 127 swings * .8375 acc * 1.0275 brutal * 1.45 DA * 5.4 tp = 855.7
/nin total: 1539.7 tp

More tp in favor of /nin if you have more acc and what cream said.
Floored delay into seconds, # of swings in 600 seconds, and final tp value, by the way. Should have floored every product but.. I'm not about to edit the numbers for a fourth time

Edit: Should also add that as acc falls /sam's tp over time increases due to meditate being static. Also, you lose tp by casting ni and ichi.

[Wolfknight]

You need 26sTP with 492 Delay (Standard) lance. You need 29sTP with Cletine.

Sub SAM (15)
Rajas (5)
Brutal Earring (1)

21sTP Total without body. Aurum will not make up for this difference. In addition, don't forget that there is a substantial base damage difference between these two weapons.

Substantial is hardly the word I would pick for 2~4 dmg, also the delay difference makes up for that really since you're hitting faster[2.5% or so]. While Cletine doesn't quite get a "true" 6-hit from aurum, it does gets drakesbane with 2 of 4 hits needed to land for 6-hit; if colibiri could just have a macro either chiv chain, white tathulm, attilla ear, or ecphoria ring on for tp til ws when feather tickled or just use a jump with peice of barone in the macro. So simply saying don't use when it's very good for drakebane avg, with Aurum avialable it's plenty good enough over thal/skystrider/etc if you ask me; obivously V. Fork or a very good Fay lance[+5 D/+2~3 str/dex or/and added damage effect].

Also 5-hit with gae bolg would be interesting but seems like that would take too much stp, sacrificing too much other stats. Cause I count you need +37 stp for 5-hit with it so /sam + rajas + aurum + brutal puts at 28, white tathlum and rose grip put to +34 atilla. ear, chiv. chain, and ecphoria ring would put at +37, but you're looking -2% DA, good bit of acc/att lose depending on your current gear, and haste lost if using blitz ring, lower damage than thal/V. Fork/etc and 12% increase in delay compared to 492 polearms all for +20% ws rating seems like a bit much to give up to me really; since delay difference lowers it only 8% more off the bat.

[Pocketrockets]

maybe i'm just misreading but offhanding joytoy = half the DAs? lol?

I think he means that when you offhand Joyeuse (or mainhand it) while /nin, it only has a chance to DA once every attack round, which is almost twice as long as an attack round while mainhanding Joyeuse and not /nin.

[urat]

numbers

Exactly, In some situations, specifically when acc isnt in question or if you have proper gearing for it, joytoy can tp as well as dagger.

There's a few things I dont know if the calc took into consideration like, once again, being able to solo darkness twice as often /sam, and zanshin (though the slight boost it'd give you probably is neglible)

As for half the DAs, if your offhanding joytoy you only swing it every second swing, thus it only gives you a 25% DA, further gimping it down.

You won't be called gimp for offhanding a joyuese and subbing ninja, but its a far cry from azoth and /sam.

[Yugl]

Substantial is hardly the word I would pick for 2~4 dmg, also the delay difference makes up for that really since you're hitting faster[2.5% or so]. While Cletine doesn't quite get a "true" 6-hit from aurum, it does gets drakesbane with 2 of 4 hits needed to land for 6-hit; if colibiri could just have a macro either chiv chain, white tathulm, attilla ear, or ecphoria ring on for tp til ws when feather tickled or just use a jump with peice of barone in the macro. So simply saying don't use when it's very good for drakebane avg, with Aurum avialable it's plenty good enough over thal/skystrider/etc if you ask me; obivously V. Fork or a very good Fay lance[+5 D/+2~3 str/dex or/and added damage effect].

1. You cannot use that Earring.

2. I would go crazy if I had to concentrate so much as to hit a different TP set every time I actually needed the 6-hit build.

3. I don't get where you think 3% Critical hit will increase average damage compared to higher base DMG. Moreover, since Cletine keeps you on edge with your 6-hit build, you don't have breathing room for other entities such as misses on WS or Non-sTP dependent Jump sets. Moreover, if you look at the gear you're sacrificing to obtain a true 6-hit build, chances are you're opting to put off 3-5 ACC in order to make Cletine work. Look at each to see what I mean:

Echpo Ring: If you're in a situation where you can sacrifice the ACC to use it, then Blitz is the ideal choice.

White Tathlum: Again, you could use Black Tathlum and potentially Blitz Ring it. If not, then chances are you need the ACC.

Chiv Chain: Same situation as Tathlum but instead you would be using PCC or L Torque.

In short, you would need to be in a situation where you aren't sacrificing Haste and ACC is capped. To put this in a pragmatic perspective, check this item set: - FFXIAH.com

Notice that in this set, I'm at 402 ACC, which is still uncapped ACC. At the same time, I'm maximizing my haste. Clearly, any compromise to make Cletine work will come at the cost of ACC or Haste; neither of which is worth pimping a (.05) VIT mod for Jump nor granting a measly 3% Critical hit percent increase for Drakesbane. Don't overplay the effect of 3%; it's essentially (.03) more DMG from a higher pDIF hit. In the process, you're sacrificing much more.

[Cream Soda]

Exactly, In some situations, specifically when acc isnt in question or if you have proper gearing for it, joytoy can tp as well as dagger.

There's a few things I dont know if the calc took into consideration like, once again, being able to solo darkness twice as often /sam, and zanshin (though the slight boost it'd give you probably is neglible)

As for half the DAs, if your offhanding joytoy you only swing it every second swing, thus it only gives you a 25% DA, further gimping it down.

You won't be called gimp for offhanding a joyuese and subbing ninja, but its a far cry from azoth and /sam.

Again, not talking about /sam vs /nin, but in referring to the
"when acc isnt in question or if you have proper gearing for it, joytoy can tp as well as dagger."

The only way a second dagger out tp's joy is if you have 0 merited in sword, capped merits in dagger, and are uncapped acc in both. Let's say you're capped in dagger (and overshooting by like 10 acc) and still uncapped in joy, then it wins even in that situation as far as number of hits landed (yet alone the fact that you'd get more tp/hit due to its higher delay)

[Wolfknight]

1. You cannot use that Earring.

2. I would go crazy if I had to concentrate so much as to hit a different TP set every time I actually needed the 6-hit build.

Eh Suppose I overlooked that I had assumed it was the same jobs as blitz ring, my bad. And I can't really blame you for that; I was just saying that if you wanted to you could.

3. I don't get where you think 3% Critical hit will increase average damage compared to higher base DMG. Moreover, since Cletine keeps you on edge with your 6-hit build, you don't have breathing room for other entities such as misses on WS or Non-sTP dependent Jump sets. Moreover, if you look at the gear you're sacrificing to obtain a true 6-hit build, chances are you're opting to put off 3-5 ACC in order to make Cletine work. Look at each to see what I mean:

Echpo Ring: If you're in a situation where you can sacrifice the ACC to use it, then Blitz is the ideal choice.

White Tathlum: Again, you could use Black Tathlum and potentially Blitz Ring it. If not, then chances are you need the ACC.

Chiv Chain: Same situation as Tathlum but instead you would be using PCC or L Torque.

In short, you would need to be in a situation where you aren't sacrificing Haste and ACC is capped. To put this in a pragmatic perspective, check this item set: - FFXIAH.com

Notice that in this set, I'm at 402 ACC, which is still uncapped ACC. At the same time, I'm maximizing my haste. Clearly, any compromise to make Cletine work will come at the cost of ACC or Haste; neither of which is worth pimping a (.05) VIT mod for Jump nor granting a measly 3% Critical hit percent increase for Drakesbane. Don't overplay the effect of 3%; it's essentially (.03) more DMG from a higher pDIF hit. In the process, you're sacrificing much more.

A. It's 3% crit AND 2.5% more melee hits and wses; which is just like giving up haste to use a higher delay weapon when you have 6-hit with both.

B. You're ignoring fstr which makes weapon dmg matter to a lesser degree than you're make it out to be when considering fstr cletine 90 dmg + fstr cap same as polearm aside from relic makes it like 104~107 to 107~111, and 104 > 107 is 2.88% increase for low end on skystrider and while on high end thal is 107 > 111 WD is 3.7% increase; fine V. Fork or Good Fay lance would be 104 > 109 being 4.8% increase and 107 > 112 4.67% increase which is enough for gap to be clearly better for other option I don't think dmg improvement alone can be enough; since at best 3.7% increase in dmg vs 2.5% increase melee speed and ws rate, and 3% crit; if 3% crit would be >= 1.2% dmg increase I am not sure; while I know it would beat skystrider's 2.88% increase.

C. For when you NEED a true 6-hit, most people don't have black tathulm, I don't, since black here anyways tends to be 3~5x white price[2~3m vs 8~11m], so giving up 2 acc on ammo could be made up for with 3 dex/2 acc ear and still be at amount you have. And You don't need a true 6-hit really anywhere except birds or mobs that wipe tp like khim. A 6-hit off 2/4 hits for drakebane is fine even if you're at 80% acc somehow during ws main hit will cap acc from bonus and from remaining three hits you have a .8% chance of miss the other three at 80%, at 95% you have a .0125% chance of missing them otherwise tp is a non-issue; assuming you're tping and wsing in Aurum body. Obivously if you're using wheeling thrust you shouldn't be using cletine.

[Dooom]

I'm leveling NIN on my taru character for lvl 60 taru enm fights. I'm at 41 right now and since I have BLM gear from leveling it to 75 as my first job, would I be alright going NIN/RDM or NIN/BLM tanking from 41 to 60?

I found the wheel lost out compared to focusing on DDing after 50. Colibri seemed particularly resistant. However, from 40-50 or so, focusing on nukes is certainly the way to go. If you're talking about solo or something though... then I honestly couldn't say.

[Taru Taru Stool]

Guess I'll keep my katanas skilled up then. Thanks^^

[Thunder]

You won't be called gimp for offhanding a joyuese and subbing ninja, but its a far cry from azoth and /sam.

Numbers pretty much show that they're close when using appropriate gear, even when you're not overshooting your acc.

~6% increase in tp over time when /sam, or ~10tp more every minute. Now it's shadows vs 6% more tp and soloing darkness(really shouldn't be put into consideration when you're talking about TP gain).

[Nitrous24]

Champion's Galea for pld. Haste 3% and fast cast 3% or full fast cast 5% and swap to turban? Or just scrap the pld idea and get the str+4 AGI+4 one for my sam? (my sam is rathe rmeh just got 75). I'm thinking about pld for completeness sake and to add inventory-1 effect. Thoughts?

edit: no i don't want shield skill on it. as it's rather pointless if i ever get the money for cursed schaller -1. because i already swap some stuff after starting cast as it is. one more thing isn't gonna hurt.

[Thunder]

4str 2% WSDMG would probably do more for your sam than 5% fast cast would for cure/flash/utsu. To be honest, I don't even notice the fast cast processing on rdm using spellcast and equiping fast cast gear before casts with precast.

[Vodak]

Hello, this saturday i finally completed MKD and now have to chose a head piece. I read this thread but not saw any response that clear my mind enought. I have BLM, THF, BST 75, almost all time i do lsevents whit BLM but nothing hard like kings, einherjar, jailers, only dynamis, sky, limbus.

My choices are that:

THF, BST WS: STR +4 DEX +4 WSaccuracy +15 Critical hit damage +2%

BLM nuke: INT +4 Maccuracy +2 MAB +2

My current nuke head is AF, i can get a demon helm if you think it worth over AF, for THF|BST ws i haven't any piece yet but maybe we start einherjar soon and can get Heca Head.

Knowing that, here the question, From what head i get more benefit over heca and AF/demon?

[Ezhno]

Played around with ffxicalc just now. Used azoth while /sam and azoth/joytoy while /nin(if that's not what I should be doing I'll gladly correct it and plug different numbers in).

With good haste gear, swift, turban, dusk feet/hands, skadi legs, azoth main hits every 3seconds for 7.2 tp. Azoth/joy hits for 5.6 tp.

Assuming you just hit 95% acc with dagger and joyeuse is 41.4 acc behind(0 merits) while letting both weapons swing in 600 seconds you have:
/sam: 200 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 7.2 tp = 1436.4tp
med: 600 seconds / 180 seconds = 3.33 * 60tp = ~200
/sam total: 1636.4 tp

/nin azoth: 115 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 5.6 tp = 642.3
/nin joy: 115 swings * .743 acc * 1.45 DA * 1.0275 brutal * 5.6 tp = 712.8
/nin total: 1355.1 tp

If you have merits, suppa, and MKD body, though:
/nin azoth: 127 swings * .95 acc * 1.05 brutal * 5.4 tp = 684.0
/nin joy: 127 swings * .8375 acc * 1.0275 brutal * 1.45 DA * 5.4 tp = 855.7
/nin total: 1539.7 tp

More tp in favor of /nin if you have more acc and what cream said.
Floored delay into seconds, # of swings in 600 seconds, and final tp value, by the way. Should have floored every product but.. I'm not about to edit the numbers for a fourth time

Edit: Should also add that as acc falls /sam's tp over time increases due to meditate being static. Also, you lose tp by casting ni and ichi.

Sorry I'm late to the party, but these numbers are skewed because DNC can't use Skadi.

[Niiro]

On the DNC discussion, just something no one's mentioned:

You feed a considerable amount of TP when /nin compared to /sam. DNC feeds more TP and does the least damage/hit than anything that melees.

I can't really think of terribly many situations where this would be a big deal, just something to tack on. In most situations where feeding TP is an issue you probably won't be bringing a DNC anyway, but /SAM offers double benefits in that you feed less TP and gain more TP as well as an extra way to gain TP when not meleeing.

Between No Foot Rise + Reverse Flourish and Meditate you've got 135 free TP every 3 mins assuming you merit NFR and Rev. effect, which both seem like very good ideas to me (not a dnc).

I agree /sam is seriously underrated and underutilized.

[Ezhno]

I'll also say one sub I use on the off occasion is WHM just to get status cures off of the Waltz timer as well as more sources of curing as MP allows (I'm fond of dropping the instant Waltz III followed by starting Cure 3 while the animation is still going; it's just a tad short of Waltz IV and it won't fuck up your timer). It's very niche and of course there are many situations where it'll suck, but being able to go full support and even be able to help raise people can be very effective.

[Thunder]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but these numbers are skewed because DNC can't use Skadi.

You're right, my bad, but both of them got the benefits so it shouldn't matter enough to plug barbarossa's in.

Also, /sch > /whm for every job unless you need erase for some reason.

[Ezhno]

I'd love to try out /SCH but I am still working on it for a WHM sub before I take WHM past 50. It's just so bloody boring. Before 40 feels like the same damn mage jobs I already leveled 3 times.