What's Better?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I disagree on this. If you're able to melee to the hate cap, you're better off using Seigan/Third Eye or /nin & Utsu to tank the mob and bounce it between other DD or tank. I can't think of any mob where a melee can reach the hate cap, and wouldn't be better off tanking while keeping a high damage output. (I only feel this way about melee DD, not jobs like RNG or BLM.)

Even if they weren't able to tank the mob, the math wouldn't support using -enmity. VE decreases at 60VE/sec, and VE generation is high. (ie; 4x Damage Dealt on a Lv88 mob). Using a few pieces of Enmity- at the start would only give you a few extra hits before you reach capped CE. Unless you're hitting for such low numbers, the -enmity won't change you capping VE during every hit~

If you can tank it, that's one thing, but I'm going to counter-disagree with your disagreement. Those few extra hits you get in are still going to amount to more total damage than if you were to simply add a few more STR to your build in lieu of -ENM.

[Kirschy]

If you can tank it, that's one thing, but I'm going to counter-disagree with your disagreement. Those few extra hits you get in are still going to amount to more total damage than if you were to simply add a few more STR to your build in lieu of -ENM.

I just can't think of any situation in where I'd have to stop hitting the mob when I hit the enmity cap, because I can't Seigan/Utsu tank my hate. Your argument is valid, I just don't see where it would apply. (Again, I only mean melee DD like WAR/SAM/DRK/DRG/etc...)

[Oulanbator]

I just can't think of any situation in where I'd have to stop hitting the mob when I hit the enmity cap, because I can't Seigan/Utsu tank my hate. Your argument is valid, I just don't see where it would apply. (Again, I only mean melee DD like WAR/SAM/DRK/DRG/etc...)

Once you start tanking the mob, your dmg output is reduced especially if you're using utsusemi. You have more chances to get killed, this will also reduce your dmg output even more.

So we have:
- damage dealer with steady damage output and lowered hate gain
Vs.
- damage dealer with decreasing damage output, high hate gain and some potential to get killed tanking, wasting a slot in the group.

Can you explain me how the DD capping hate faster and tanking is more beneficial to the group ?




@others: thanks for the answers

[Tsuko_Asura]

And for the record, dragoon isn't part of that group. I've always theorized that, assuming some degree of impracticality in having your DD tank for any elongated period of time, DRG was amongst the most powerful non-relic DD, just because Super Jump allows them to never hit the hate cap.

[Kirschy]

Once you start tanking the mob, your dmg output is reduced especially if you're using utsusemi. You have more chances to get killed, this will also reduce your dmg output even more.

So we have:
- damage dealer with steady damage output and lowered hate gain
Vs.
- damage dealer with decreasing damage output, high hate gain and some potential to get killed tanking, wasting a slot in the group.

Can you explain me how the DD capping hate faster and tanking is more beneficial to the group ?

I definetly agree that tanking the mob reduces damage output for that particular player. But for the overall group/event, it enables everyone to maximize their damage, making the fight more efficient. Classic examples are Cerb or Fafhogg. Any DD can damage tank those mobs with standard support. When all DD can maximize their damage output, the fight is faster. At this point in the game, most LS can kill these types of mobs with ease, with improvement in efficiency coming from using less players and taking less time. There's nothing wrong with DD holding back and taking extra time, but why when the risks are minimal? While I only mentioned Cerb/Nid, the same idea stretches to almost every endgame event/mob the game has to offer. (Aside for the few which are not readibly meleeable.) With an above average support team, anytime a melee DD can reach the hate cap, they can tank their hate.

Back to your initial statement that tanking reduces your damage output. While this is true, if the player is still holding/bouncing hate while tanking, it means their damage output is higher than if they were holding back. Also, while using -enmity will lower the number of hits before you reach the CE cap, it'll only save you a few hits which is a small% in a longer fight. Once you hit the CE cap, VE Decay vs VE gain through damage takes over. The player would have to cut down on haste, start hitting for 60s, and/or not WS at all if they wanted to keep below the VE cap. This negates any extra damage that was incurred through this method of DD and not tanking hate. It's a safe way to fight, but it's not efficient.

At this stage in the game, players understand the game mechanics well. Any DD worth their weight can go all out, and mitigate enough damage to stay alive to the end. The benefits far outweigh the risks. If your DD are consistantly dying, either the support is failing, or they don't have the necessary skill to be a high-end DD. (I'm not implying much skill is needed.) If thats the case, then what I'm writing doesn't apply.

[Kirschy]

And for the record, dragoon isn't part of that group. I've always theorized that, assuming some degree of impracticality in having your DD tank for any elongated period of time, DRG was amongst the most powerful non-relic DD, just because Super Jump allows them to never hit the hate cap.

I'll be honest, my DRG is 42. I have no experience with their playstyle or hate gain outside of merits. I just grouped them together with other melee prematurely. I don't know how the hate shedding on HJ/SJ play out in long fights =x

[Max™]

I know it isn't REALLY a factor in most cases being discussed here... but Retaliation dramatically improves War DD capabilities, like zomgwtf awesomely... just saying.

[BerenTebogo]

You know what happens when you use Retaliation on Nidhogg with hate when TE is down? The same thing that happens when you don't have Retaliation on Nidhogg when TE is down.

You get hit for 500+ damage a swing.

<3

[BerenTebogo]

Where would Nbody +1 and Alkys stand for metatron torment / KJ vs other options. Assume for arguments sake I have access to every body and hand piece in the game.

Edit: Basically the way I see it (with what I have, not counting Ares just yet) is
STR18 ACC15 ATT15
STR21 ACC10
STR24 DEX-9 ACC+10
STR21 ATT15 ACC15

And I guess for shits Ares
STR+23 ATT+24 DEX-9

Leaning towards STR21 ATT15 ACC15

[Nameless]

Yea, staying alive is like a new art of damage dealing. That's why recently I have built a situational tank set for my drk in case I have hate for an extended period of time (very very very bad for your inventory tho... 77/80 on my drk and nothing to get rid of). Like others have said, Drg is superior in this aspect as you almost don't have to worry about hate and super jump enable you to avoid deadly aoe such as astral flow. That's why when we do Odin, I usually go drg over my drk (don't have smn, rng, or blu) for angon and decent no hate damage. Rngs obviously do more damage but they also get killed pretty often.

[isladar]

You know what happens when you use Retaliation on Nidhogg with hate when TE is down? The same thing that happens when you don't have Retaliation on Nidhogg when TE is down.

You get hit for 500+ damage a swing.

<3

Retaliation tanking Hundred Fists in Dynamis is the best ED cure known to man.

[Pindle]

Usukane Sune-Ate vs Creek M Clomps for Sam WS.

[Wolfknight]

And for the record, dragoon isn't part of that group. I've always theorized that, assuming some degree of impracticality in having your DD tank for any elongated period of time, DRG was amongst the most powerful non-relic DD, just because High Jump and Super Jump allows them to never hit the hate cap.

ftfy

[Shinryuu]

Usukane Sune-Ate vs Creek M Clomps for Sam WS.

Creek for Gekko, Usukane for Penta.

[Darlantan]

Where would Nbody +1 and Alkys stand for metatron torment / KJ vs other options. Assume for arguments sake I have access to every body and hand piece in the game.

Edit: Basically the way I see it (with what I have, not counting Ares just yet) is
STR18 ACC15 ATT15
STR21 ACC10
STR24 DEX-9 ACC+10
STR21 ATT15 ACC15

And I guess for shits Ares
STR+23 ATT+24 DEX-9

Leaning towards STR21 ATT15 ACC15

Metatron Torment, I really dont know.

For KJ, before I had Ebody I would usually go with Hecatomb body + Ares's Gauntlets in most situations, but after getting it and tweaking some gear, I go with Ebody + Alkys more often than not. The reason behind is with those, and accounting the -Dex from Alkys, I am always @ the acc cap (I parse almost anything of a serious level). Could use N.body/ +1 for an increase of 2-3 STR and losing a lot of attack, or any of the other combinations but I think in most cases 21 STR ATT15 ACC15 will be the best, unless fighting something with shitty evasion, getting madrigals, eating pizza, agressor up etc, you could have 2-3 sets for those variables I guess.

[Kouu]

Where would Nbody +1 and Alkys stand for metatron torment / KJ vs other options. Assume for arguments sake I have access to every body and hand piece in the game.

Edit: Basically the way I see it (with what I have, not counting Ares just yet) is
STR18 ACC15 ATT15
STR21 ACC10
STR24 DEX-9 ACC+10
STR21 ATT15 ACC15

And I guess for shits Ares
STR+23 ATT+24 DEX-9

Leaning towards STR21 ATT15 ACC15

For Metatron Torment I'd use the Ares's Cuirass combo, hands down. Attack matters for the Relic WS. Working with what you have, the STR21 ATT/ACC +15 combo is probably the best.

If you've got Bravura(not stage 4) you can probably swing an alky/ares combo with KJ, at least when Aggressor is up. Otherwise go with the STR21 ATT/ACC+15 combo.

[Max™]

Retaliation tanking Hundred Fists in Dynamis is the best ED cure known to man.

Truer words were never posted.

[Vodak]

Yigit or Goliard, hands and feet, for pure damage gear.

edit: sorry maybe this dat is important, i only use my blm for endgame.

[Darlantan]

For pure damage, Yigit feet and Goliard hands.

Edit: Actually, I think Yigit hands can be or surpass 4MAB depending on the target INT? Never got it right, someone with more knowledge on the matter needs to answer that properly.

[Darkdoom]

For Raging Rush would Askar Zucchetto pushing me from 109 to 113 DEX be better than Adaman Celata's 5acc and 8 attack?

Also, neckwise would Chiv Chains 3STR beat out the extra 1.8acc & 6.3 attack on Fortitude torque?


Or should I have both builds and use Zucchetto + Chain for merit targets and Fort+Ada for higher evasion targets?


Obviously Nhead + Kubira bead is best and it's only a matter of time before getting those, but I'm curious which of the two combos I have access too right now would work better.