What's Better?

[Cream Soda]

Dia II makes for 293 defense on 82 birds

400 attack + kabob is about 462 attack (including attack from the str)

462/293-.35 = 1.226791809
465/293-.35 = 1.237030717

1.237030717/1.226791809 = .835% increase not 1% increase. Less lv correlation on lv 81 birds means less of an increase from them as well.

.835 then split that by the dot/ws ratio. I'll use 65/35 since i always say 70/30 and u say 60/40 on mnk.

.835% x .65 = .54% increase on lv 82 birds, even less on 81 birds.

[FailureMidgard]

Thanks, pchan like usual has no grasp on anything, glad I get to be lazy and not do anything!

[Argettio]

The RR vs KJ thread went wrong, but hopefully I can get a simple answer to:

Insurgency vs Guillotine.

I know it will probably be situational, so when would you use 1 over the other?

[Andradi]

Pretty sure Insurgency is only ever worth using if there's an SC opportunity right there. I've heard reports of strange damage spikes, but as far as I can tell it's never been quantified.

[liggy 0]

sooo i just dinged 72 off tigers, question was what body piece should i use till 75 at puddings? AF1 or Errants? elemental skill lv 276 with af1. 8/8 merits etc.

already have gear laidout at75, dont need suggestions for it.

current set
HQ/bug+1/phantom
af1/elemental/phantom/moldy
af1/yigit/diamonx2
gleemans/pent/mahatma/yigit

i use ugg and a aug. +2macc for situational

[Andradi]

Well, AF1 body does precisely dick for nuking, so use errant for nuking and AF1 for enfeebling.

[Argettio]

Well, AF1 body does precisely dick for nuking, so use errant for nuking and AF1 for enfeebling.

This

[warc]

Well, AF1 body does precisely dick for nuking, so use errant for nuking and AF1 for enfeebling.

Depends what job hes talking about? I think you are assuming hes talking about blm, in which case, you are correct. But If hes talking about sch, af1 body gives 15 elemental skill under dark arts enhance thing. But regardless, I'd just use errant for puddings as resists should minimal anyway.

[Andradi]

I... hadn't even considered that (hurf durf), and considering the wording SCH seems likely. Agree with your sentiment, SCH with merits shouldn't really have trouble sticking nukes on xp mobs, so use errant.

[pchan]

Forgot to apply attack's increase to the DoT/WS split

Dia II makes for 293 defense on 82 birds

400 attack + kabob is about 462 attack (including attack from the str)

462/293-.35 = 1.226791809
465/293-.35 = 1.237030717

1.237030717/1.226791809 = .835% increase not 1% increase. Less lv correlation on lv 81 birds means less of an increase from them as well.

.835 then split that by the dot/ws ratio. I'll use 65/35 since i always say 70/30 and u say 60/40 on mnk.

.835% x .65 = .54% increase on lv 82 birds, even less on 81 birds.

Hi. Last I checked attack and accuracy both affect weapon skill damage. Your multiplication by 0.65 is completely irrelevant, as the debate torreador VS divisor is the same for melee and weapon skill. Your claim is the same as claiming attack doesn't improve asuran fists damage. If anything, attack is more important since it benefits from boost. So I camp on my position.

Thanks, pchan like usual has no grasp on anything, glad I get to be lazy and not do anything!

Please do the maths about why accucary is always better than 3 attack. Or maybe you can't ?

[Cream Soda]

Hi. Last I checked attack and accuracy both affect weapon skill damage. Your multiplication by 0.65 is completely irrelevant, as the debate torreador VS divisor is the same for melee and weapon skill. Your claim is the same as claiming attack doesn't improve asuran fists damage. If anything, attack is more important since it benefits from boost. So I camp on my position.





Please do the maths about why accucary is always better than 3 attack. Or maybe you can't ?

No, because the debate here, on my end at least has 0 to do w/ ws. If divisor turns out to be the better ws ring, you TP in toreador's and ws in divisor. If the you have the same ws set, no matter the tp set, then the attack will only benefit the DoT/WS split and not the entire damage.

[pchan]

No, because the debate here, on my end at least has 0 to do w/ ws. If divisor turns out to be the better ws ring, you TP in toreador's and ws in divisor. If the you have the same ws set, no matter the tp set, then the attack will only benefit the DoT/WS split and not the entire damage.

There is absolutely no reason to assume anything on weapon skill damage. You can assume the same gear on ws damage, owning a divisor ring doesn't exclude owning a torreador's ring.

Whenever accuracy is needed, 3 attack does about 0.85%-1% increase in pure damage, while 1 accuracy will be about 0.5%. This debate is about torreador vs divisor whenever 7 accuracy is needed. The conclusion that you and me did is :


TP phase outside focus : 3 att is ~+0.85%-1% increase, 1 accuracy is a little over 0.5%
WS phase outside focus : 3 attack ~+0.85%-1% increase, 1 accuracy is a little over 0.5%
TP phase during focus : irrelevant mostly unless not full usukane
WS phase during focus : irrelevant for the same reason

The conclusion is that divisor is superior. I'm not as clueless as failuremilgard, and won't prentend that it is always better. I'm sure you can find a setup with march minuet cor and /war where torreador is better.

If the you have the same ws set, no matter the tp set, then the attack will only benefit the DoT/WS split and not the entire damage.

same for 1 acc on torreador.

[Cream Soda]

same for 1 acc on torreador.

No. The acc increases direct damage and tp gained, so increases ws dmg indirectly via frequency where as the attack only helps direct damage, does nothing for frequency. Assuming you use the exact same WS build for both, TP'ing in Toreador's would not get the DoT/WS split and the 3 attack would.

[pchan]

No. The acc increases direct damage and tp gained, so increases ws dmg indirectly via frequency where as the attack only helps direct damage, does nothing for frequency. Assuming you use the exact same WS build for both, TP'ing in Toreador's would not get the DoT/WS split and the 3 attack would.

So can you be more specific about the weapon skill frequency increase ? Quick math tell me that with 1 more accuracy I get 0.5% increase in the number of weaponskills. So you end up with this :


melee damage outside focus : divisior +0.5%
melee damage during focus : nada
ws damage outside focus : divisor +0.5%
ws damage outside focus : nada
ws frequency during focus : nada
ws frequency outside focus : +0.5% for torreador's

If I do 60 melee damage and 40 ws damage with an acc 7 ring, the resulting damage is now

divisor :

(40*1.005 + 60*1.005) * 0.60 (total damage outside focus) +
(40+60)*0.40 (total damage during focus)
= 100.30

torreador's ring :

(40 + 60*1.005) * 0.60 (total damage outside focus while taking ws frequency increase) +
(40+60)*0.40 (total damage during focus)
= 100.18

And divisor is still better. Not to mention the supposed increase in ws frequency is probably reduced by the fact that rounds come with dual punches and kick attacks, so in order to increase ws frequency, you need to statistically the number of entire rounds, not the number of hits. So in the end +0.5% ws frequency increase is largely exagerated. And finally, as far as salavge boss is concerned, 0.5% ws freq is irrelevant as you typaclly do less than 20 weapon skills.

[Cream Soda]

Who said anything about focus? I never said never to use Divisor. You must have me confused w/ another poster. I was saying when your acc is uncapped. If I had a Divisor I would use them both and of course divisor w/ focus up (because if your acc STILL isn't capped w/ focus, you should be using a different piece of food).

Focus is irrelevant here as the comparison is between the two pieces of gear WHEN ACC IS UNCAPPED. Capped acc nobody is disputing Divisor to be the winner.

[Cream Soda]

Use Toreador's when your acc is uncapped, use divisor when your acc is capped. What part of that is a hard concept for you to grasp?

[pchan]

That's stupid. WS frequency, which is your last argument (after I destroyed the others one by one), is only applyable to non focus phase, which I reflected in my previous computation. 0.5% increase in WS frequency and 0.5% increase in melee accuracy from torreador does not beat 3 attack even if you auto-attack a wall for a straight 10,000 hours.

[Argettio]

That's stupid. WS frequency, which is your last argument (after I destroyed the others one by one), is only applyable to non focus phase, which I reflected in my previous computation. 0.5% increase in WS frequency and 0.5% increase in melee accuracy from torreador does not beat 3 attack even if you auto-attack a wall for a straight 10,000 hours.

If you look very carefully at the description of the rings you will see this bit at the bottom that says "All Jobs".

There are 20 jobs in this game, at least half of them make a living out of hitting the bad guy with some kind of sharp/pointy/blunt thing (another 4-5 hit shit in their spare item)

Only 3 of them have a JA that increases accuracy that they can realistically use as soon as the timer is ready (MNK, WAR, DRK).

So why you are basing everything on 1 job with a unique weapon mechanic, a JA that gives accuracy (which N/A for most jobs) and a high dependence on attack gear is beyond me.

[pchan]

So why you are basing everything on 1 job with a unique weapon mechanic, a JA that gives accuracy (which N/A for most jobs) and a high dependence on attack gear is beyond me.

I'm not basing anything on focus, try reading.

[Argettio]

I'm not basing anything on focus, try reading.

Your maths includes sections for focus being up and focus being down...

Do I need to quote you to show you?

So can you be more specific about the weapon skill frequency increase ? Quick math tell me that with 1 more accuracy I get 0.5% increase in the number of weaponskills. So you end up with this :


melee damage outside focus : divisior +0.5%
melee damage during focus : nada
ws damage outside focus : divisor +0.5%
ws damage outside focus : nada
ws frequency during focus : nada
ws frequency outside focus : +0.5% for torreador's

If I do 60 melee damage and 40 ws damage with an acc 7 ring, the resulting damage is now

divisor :

(40*1.005 + 60*1.005) * 0.60 (total damage outside focus) +
(40+60)*0.40 (total damage during focus)
= 100.30

torreador's ring :

(40 + 60*1.005) * 0.60 (total damage outside focus while taking ws frequency increase) +
(40+60)*0.40 (total damage during focus)
= 100.18

And divisor is still better. Not to mention the supposed increase in ws frequency is probably reduced by the fact that rounds come with dual punches and kick attacks, so in order to increase ws frequency, you need to statistically the number of entire rounds, not the number of hits. So in the end +0.5% ws frequency increase is largely exagerated. And finally, as far as salavge boss is concerned, 0.5% ws freq is irrelevant as you typaclly do less than 20 weapon skills.

My point is, Focus, Aggressor and Diabolic Eye are limited to 3 jobs. And to pick MNK as your example job is not relevant to everyone. Most jobs have to TP in static accuracy, so need their gear to get them capped (or close to) and can't rely on a JA to 'fix' it 60% of the time.

SAM for example don't really give a crap about their DoT, their only interest is WS frequency (due to the different TP/WS damage ratio) and won't be WSing in an ACC or ATT gear. Therefore a 0.5% increase in the number of WS is probably better than 0.85% Melee DoT in that situation.

This is why the TP/WS ratio needs to be accounted for and why MNK is an 'odd' choice as the example job.