THF ws,

[Spider-Dan]

also, SA/TA does nothing more for Mandalic Stab than it does for Dancing Edge, because of the way that WS dmg is calculated (fTP, which includes the addition of extra hits, is calculated before things like SA/TA or fSTR and pDIF are ever applied).

The majority of damage from M.Stab comes from the first hit.
SA/TA makes this first hit a guaranteed critical.
This is a big deal.

If you use solo SA and then unstacked DE, you will get results that are very close to stacking SA+DE. If you use solo SA and then unstacked M.Stab, you will not come anywhere remotely near the damage of stacked SA+M.Stab.

on a further note, fSTR cap is NOT as easy to hit on thf as most people claim. you need 119 total str to hit fSTR cap on lv82 g.colibri, which means almost maximum possible str gear, when you would benefit more (during SAWS) from using all your hecatomb (not including body, unless you don't have mirke wardecors w/ acc, antares harness, or skadi's body when using dancing edge/evisceration), use your dex/agi rings, and ancient/love torque over say...chiv chain

This statement would carry more weight if "maximum possible STR gear" and "hecatomb" were not almost entirely the same thing.

You say that THF should equip STR gear over DEX gear for unstacked WS. What does this mean, exactly?

Are you going to equip Pln. or Enkidu pants over Hecatomb? No.
Are you going to equip Chiv. Chain/Spike Necklace/Justice Torque over Love/Ancient Torque? No.
Are you going to equip Triumph Earring over Hollow/Pixie? No.
Are you going to equip Flame Ring over Thunder Ring? Not if you're smart.

The only piece of gear that even makes the decision interesting is n.body... and it's not because of the STR, it's because of the ACC.

[Eleven19]

on a further note, fSTR cap is NOT as easy to hit on thf as most people claim. you need 119 total str to hit fSTR cap on lv82 g.colibri

Slightly off-topic, but could one of you guys refer me to a thread or a wiki etc where all of this information is listed? Caps for fSTR weapon/job wise on known mobs, caps on how much DEX you want to shoot for crit-rate wise on mobs. I always see these figures listed but I don't know where they come from, or if they're even listed together someplace at all.

Or if they're listed for anything more than colibri lol.

[Malacite]

For THF Main, Sneak Attack Allows the First hit to gain the DEX Bonus and Crit Hit, The other hits are 100% Accurate, but gain no DEX bonus or Critical hit Bonus.

Also Yes, Use as much DEX As possible, No amount of STR on the Second or Third hit is going to outweigh a 3-4~8 Base DMG Added to your Main hit.

However, Hecatomb armor like Feet,Hands,Head,legs are your best bet for -Solo Sneak Attack-, Body however is not, cause at that point its 12STR Vs 6-7-8 Base Damage(DH,DH+1,Antares), and on a 100% Hit(Including Triple Attack/Multihit) the Acc+10 is moot... DH Also adds +10~12Attack and less impacting 10~12 Subtle Blow.

No they aren't either. Or am I just imagining all the times I've missed a few hits on SA + DE?

[Raen Ryong]

SADE, assuming /nin and triple attack proc:

1st hit (force crit) - 100%
2nd hit - not 100%
3rd hit - not 100%
4th hit - not 100%
5th hit - not 100%
6th hit (dual wield hit) - not 100%
7th hit (TA) - 100%
8th hit (TA) - 100%

soloSA: 4str > 1dex
soloTA: 4str > 1agi (without AF+1 hands), ~5-6str > 1agi (with AF+1 hands).

Basically, unless you can get 4x as much STR as you can either DEX or AGI for soloSA and TA, don't use STR.

[Karbuncle]

No they aren't either. Or am I just imagining all the times I've missed a few hits on SA + DE?

I meant Offhand/Triple'd Attacks... Clearly i was wrong however... I can't remember where i heard it but i was at the very least certain Offhand hits while dual wielding were 100%... Oh well

At least i can learn from the information instead of ignoring it ._.

[chiyio]

I meant Offhand/Triple'd Attacks... Clearly i was wrong however... I can't remember where i heard it but i was at the very least certain Offhand hits while dual wielding were 100%... Oh well

At least i can learn from the information instead of ignoring it ._.

Offhand and triple are 100% though lol.

Dancing Edge subbed nin roughly goes as follows:
Main 100%
Sub 100%
2 not
3 not
4 not
5 not
DA 1 / TA 1 (if proc) 100%
TA 2 (if proc) 100%

[Karbuncle]

Offhand and triple are 100% though lol.

Dancing Edge subbed nin roughly goes as follows:
Main 100%
Sub 100%
2 not
3 not
4 not
5 not
DA 1 / TA 1 (if proc) 100%
TA 2 (if proc) 100%

God damnit im so confused right now. okay then.

[Raen Ryong]

The offhand is 100% as well? Source on that? SA(TA) Viper Bite definitely didn't land the offhand hit all of the time and it's very obvious on that WS when you've failed to land the SA(TA) part.

[zard1977]

Offhand hit is 100% accuracy as well.

[Archain]

I don't believe that offhand strikes are 100% ACC when you WS (rephrase, offhand extras DA/TA procs). I know they are if you use SA or TA alone (can be tested using a Kraken in the offhand and all strikes will land).

SA stacked WS is slightly different, I know that when I've used AC on a Mercy Stoke I still see 10% returns instead of 11%.

I'll pull some crap from an old post, but the 10% returns are normally ACs with 1 hit down or a DA proc. The below stuff might be wrong, it's been a while.

Assassin's Charge
Remember that you can Triple Attack on all Weaponskills on THF. If you use H2H, Club, or Sword for anything then Assassin's Charge will work the same way that it does when using a dagger. You can even triple the offhand hit if you sub /NIN.

THF/NIN - True Strike HideSATA w/ AC
http://archain.ultimals.com/images/1...e%20Strike.jpg



Offhand Triple Attacks (Dual Triple Procs)

We'll use the formulas here to show how this is calculated via TP return on the screenshots below.

Tactical Points - FFXIclopedia

A Level 75 Thief/Ninja with Dual Wield II (a bonus of -15% Delay, no Suppanomimi used in WS build) using a Mandau with 176 Delay and a Blau Dolch with 178 Delay would get:

Combined Delay : 176 + 178 = 354
Reduced Delay : 354 * (1 - 0.15) = 354 * 0.85 = 300
Reduced Delay per hand : 300/2 = 150 delay

TP gain per hand : 5.0 + [(150 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.75... → 4.7 TP/hit
TP gain per round (assuming both main and offhand weapon don't miss) : 4.7TP *2 = 9.4 TP/round

Store TP from Raja's Ring and Brutal Earring
4.7 TP * 1.06 = 4.982 truncated to 4.9 TP




Since Weaponskills are normally calculated as full attack rounds, I'll use 9TP as the return for a regular WS. I'll split the 9%TP into 4%TP Main and 5%TP offhand even though the entire round is counted instead of separate hands. On overkills, the TP Return is normally 4%TP if subbed /NIN. I tried to include screenshots below with the TParty TP return in the lower left. If an attack round is included with the WS, +10%TP is added to my TP Return.



4%TP - Overkill Mercy Stroke, offhand does not connect. Enemy is dead.
4 Main Hand

9%TP - Regular Mercy Stroke Attack Round
4 Main Hand + 5 Off Hand

• 9% TP Return - Mamool Ja Hopitaler

10%TP - Mercy Stroke Attack Round with 1 Double Attack
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 5 Off Hand
4 Main Hand + 5 Off Hand + 1TP

• 10% TP Return - Mamool Ja Sapper
• 10% TP Return - Draguar's Wyvern

11%TP - Mercy Stroke Attack Round with 1 Triple Attack (Or 2 Double Attacks) - This is a regular MS + Assassin's Charge
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 1TP + 5 Off Hand
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 5 Off Hand + 1TP
4 Main Hand + 5 Off Hand + 1TP + 1TP

• 11% TP Return - Greater Colibri
• 11% TP Return - Nyzul Fafnir

12%TP - Mercy Stroke Attack Round with 1 Triple Attack and 1 Double Attack
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 1TP + 5 Off Hand + 1TP
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 5 Off Hand + 1TP + 1TP

• 12% TP Return - Greater Colibri
• 12% TP Return - Qutrub
• 12% TP Return - Vanguard Necromancer

13%TP - Mercy Stroke Attack Round with 2 Triple Attacks
4 Main Hand + 1TP + 1TP + 5 Off Hand + 1TP + 1TP

• 13% TP Return - Lesser Colibri
• 13% TP Return - Mamool Ja Pikeman
• 13% TP Return - Proto Omega
• 13% TP Return - Sea Puk
• 13% TP Return - Wivre

[Aurara]

those are all extremely hot, but im MORE curious about the 2k shark bite you did on DI...holy fuck thats nice.

[Archain]

I might have to take that back. The 10% returns are usually indicating mainhand hits.

Since it's a single number sometimes it's hard to discern where the DA/TA strikes come from. I didn't put anything in the post above that proved my case, to be honest.

Since you are describing offhand DA/TA ACC, it could still be true.

[dawdr]

From my experience, Double Attack takes precedence over Triple Attack for some horrible reason, and that's why you'll sometimes see lower TP returns on single-hit weaponskills even with Assassin's Charge. I noticed it while using Mandalic Stab on a few (like 14 or so) Kirins, where I was subbing Warrior and using my Brutal Earring for a healthy 15% Double Attack rate. Never once did I miss both swings from an Assassin's Charge'd weaponskill, but I did get several returns that only accounted for one additional swing.

[QuePsiXI]

I guess on the technical side you can argue whether you swung 12 times and hit 8, or swung and hit 7 times. But if you notice extra tp gain on a ws, it's obviously because you landed an extra attack(s). It's not really important, to argue over whether a randomly procced DA or TA has 100% accuracy or not.

Edit: I've been relying on Archain numbers to get me through my life for years, do keep posting. Between him and Shamaya, I am so straight on Thf information.

[Shamaya]

That SB is rather nice. I haven't mercied for over 1500 on it /nin or /war (prefer /nin for the fight now). I'd like to try mandalic stab on it since it has high def, but I don't have that ws yet =X. Your stuff is always so neatly organized Archain.


Glancing at what SpiderDan said, for anyone reading this thread and unsure, I'd stick with what he said. His info is reliable.

This question is more something for the KI/Allah Thf forums but,
Dex > Str (on a 1:1 ratio) easily for non mercy thf WS's. Like most anything, let special enough circumstances arise and the reverse will be true, but there are just some things that don't or almost never happen.

Also, to make use of this thf topic, I'm doing it right by keeping my full AGI TA set when I TA Mandalic Stab right? i

This is a more useful question. I'd like to flat out say no just out of ancient spite against agi stacking for ws. But mm.. Speaking on a 1:1 ratio of agi:dex.. Mandalic has a 30% dex mod and 2.0ftp @100%. With capped triple mertis and brutal, /nin, the average Mandalic Stab will be 2.48 hits (like mercy). So 1(dex)*0.3(wsc)*(1.48 + 1*2.0(ftp)) = 1.044 distributed base damage. 2/3.48 of that is a 1st hit crit. Meanwhile, 1Agi adds a straight 1 dmg, and it'll be a crit as well. W/ AF hands it'd be as if 1.15 dmg. On top of that, WSC mods are fractured.. you might not always get extra base dmg. And level correction causes the potency to be lower than otherwise expected. So noodles, you may not be in the wrong doing what you're doing. I'd like a more precise look at this but I'm at work atm and also lazy so =/. However, it's more common to find pieces with lots of dex on them and other stats than good agi pieces. So the agi options are limited. By these numbers 8 dex would roughly = 7 agi in potency.

Slightly off-topic, but could one of you guys refer me to a thread or a wiki etc where all of this information is listed? Caps for fSTR weapon/job wise on known mobs, caps on how much DEX you want to shoot for crit-rate wise on mobs.

The info is scattered. It's not always on wiki. There's also like, "coded math" vs "applied math." Coded math would be, for example, how fStr works. Applied math would be something like "xStr is required to do such and such" or "Dex is better than Str for thief weaponskills." What we can call 'knowledge' for applied math is scattered all over forums, livejournals, wiki's, etc.

Read this - STR - VIT Difference Function - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more
Then - Weapon Rank - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more
Then read the first one again.

For mob vit (and other stat) values, I've found the info scattered on forums or LJ's, on studio gobli, or in some cases wiki: Greater Colibri - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more (as the G.Colibri has become a ruler for many calculations). ProjectXI people should also be able to help.

Crit is still a grey area. Here are some things to check out,
seaseaseaseasea - DEX/Critical hits relation data.
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/68786...ml#post2464766
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI
I've consulted this thread more than once: http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/44084...iscussion.html

Searain's lj is quoted, but it's easy to see there's nothing terribly solid there. It's mostly just data and not even extraordinarily large samples.

For people that might be interested, Evisceration vs DE has been one of the main topics for awhile now. Good threads being,
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI
So far EV is looking to have a +10%(to 15%) crit bonus at 100%TP.

<-Boredom at work -.-

[Drunknmunky]

Wtf is going on with all these retards making new threads? READ THE FUCKING STICKIES GOD FUCKING DAMMIT.

It seems somebody has not been getting any punani in months or in years for that matter. In addition, I have a better question for you. Why do all retards have the necessary to post retarded comments and statements?

Seriously why read a thread that you think or it is retarded? Unless trolls like you are hungry for some attention. I guess I will never understand your kind.

To the op:
Sorry for not contributing anything related to your question.

[Kiyara]

I notice a lot of thfs don't use full STR builds on Mercy Stroke (see people having heca legs over enkidu legs etc). So is Str the biggest factor in dmg even with SATA or is DEX and attack still play an important role in a Mercy Stroke setup?

[Shamaya]

My set (outdated months ago),
http://mt0.ffxiah.com/images/ss/mid/...ars4kOTOWe.png
on the right -->

I'd post just the WS set alone but I'm at work and my photobucket is blocked here >,<.

What people need to think about straight away when doing equip comparisons is the difference between stat vs stat and piece vs piece. Sure, lb for lb (stat for stat), str > dex and str > atk. When we say this, we are talking about a 1:1 ratio. 1Str vs 1Dex or 1Str vs 1Atk. But equips don't conveniently come in bundles of one stat or the other.

Consider,
Smilodon Mantle +1
vs
Cerberus Mantle +1

We say generally "gear for max str for Mercy," but here we've got 1 str vs 15 attack. It's blatantly obvious which is the better piece, even if you don't know the formulas.

Similarly, you've got Heca Subligar(+1), 22atk 9dex, vs Enkidu's Subligar, 4str 4dex. Same concept. Heca likely beats enkidu's because of the overwhelming quantity of stats. I'm usually a pretty paranoid/skeptical person, so I've been meaning to do the calcs on these two for awhile for Ta+MS and Sa+MS, but.. I guess things like eating cereal and the like have taken higher priority.

There are other times where non str-focused alternatives are better,
Gorget/etc > SpikeNeck
Brutal > Triumph
Amemet/etc > Smilidon+1
Heca > Enkidu's

These are the main/only exceptions. For necks though, I've found that Justice Torque is marginally better than alternatives in a variety of circumstances, though not always. Getting one for mercy though really takes it to splitting hairs.

[Eaglestrike]

I notice a lot of thfs don't use full STR builds on Mercy Stroke (see people having heca legs over enkidu legs etc). So is Str the biggest factor in dmg even with SATA or is DEX and attack still play an important role in a Mercy Stroke setup?

Dex and attack (especially attack) is still highly useful for MS. I'll emphasis attack even more because MS does so well because of its high "base" damage. You have a 3.0 fTP and that gets multiplied by your pDIF, making attack go a long way.

On the original topic, DEX > STR for non-MS WS's. It's rather easy to figure out. fSTR is increased every 4 STR, so you can essentially say a WS has a 25% STR mod, although this is ideal and under the best conditions, so it can be no higher than 25% STR. DEX is a 30% mod on DE/EV and what, 50% on SB? Making DEX always stronger. The only real argument one could make is if you had capped ACC making that aspect of DEX a non-factor and arguing that the added attack from STR would increase damage more, but I don't think it's possible to have a situation where the attack from STR would overtake the DEX > STR ratio on WS's, and if there was, it'd probably be in a very DEX heavy build anyway.

In even pairings, DEX > STR, but most of the time it's not too even so the decision is easy.

[Vodak]

Hey Shamaya this pic is helping me more than 1000 post to do my sets, thank you ^^
I hope you can help me a bit more answer this simple questions.

1.- When you use subtle blow set?

2.- Drk zerg is for when souleater is up?