Absolute Virtue Information (OP Updated)

[Neosutra]

To be fair, I'd think even you'd admit a 12 sample size doesnt speak for the actual % of "fuck you" he can dish out.

15 2 hour options (solo one near start/trio combination after 59% depending on speed). A bad timed PD, Invince, Bene, Manafont, or Charmga can end it (and yes I'm aware you can kill even with those depending on when they go off). Of his 5 2 hour combinations
Call Wyvern >>> Familiar >>> Astral Flow
Invincible >>> Benediction >>> Mijin Gakure
Meikyo Shisui>>> EES >>> EES >>> EES
Mighty Strikes -> HF -> PD
Chainspell >>> Soul Voice [-Virelai Spam-],

2 of them contain the "fuck you" buttons. Saying there isnt a good amount of control about this isnt the same as admitting there is a set % of variability if you dont lock specific 2 hours.

If you have the time/capability, it is always best to try and lock bene/inv/pd/charmga or any of the 2 hours in those pairs.

[Belkin]

Not sure if its been posted or not but after it deaggro's (lets assume you are having a sac party holding it), does it's regen come back and does it's locked 2hr abilities become unlocked again?

Basically what I'm asking is could I have a party of like 3-4 RDM/NIN CS nuke it to kill it's regen and then let them die. Then when the main alliance engages, would the regen still be off?

Also, could I have a holding party keep saccing while trying to match "Fuck you" 2HR's like PD, Invincible, Benediction. Or does deaggro mean the 2Hr's are no longer locked?

[FailureMidgard]

To be fair, I'd think even you'd admit a 12 sample size doesnt speak for the actual % of "fuck you" he can dish out.

15 2 hour options (solo one near start/trio combination after 59% depending on speed). A bad timed PD, Invince, Bene, Manafont, or Charmga can end it (and yes I'm aware you can kill even with those depending on when they go off). Of his 5 2 hour combinations
Call Wyvern >>> Familiar >>> Astral Flow
Invincible >>> Benediction >>> Mijin Gakure
Meikyo Shisui>>> EES >>> EES >>> EES
Mighty Strikes -> HF -> PD
Chainspell >>> Soul Voice [-Virelai Spam-],

2 of them contain the "fuck you" buttons. Saying there isnt a good amount of control about this isnt the same as admitting there is a set % of variability if you dont lock specific 2 hours.

If you have the time/capability, it is always best to try and lock bene/inv/pd/charmga or any of the 2 hours in those pairs.

First off, I agree a 12 sample size isn't saying much, but 50% is ridiculous, and if it was 50%, the odds of us doing 11/12 is 0.3%. Do you truly think we got that lucky? I'm making no claims that 11/12 should be everyone's rate, but 50% is insanely far off, and 12 -is- a sufficient sample size to make that claim (The probably of winning 11 in a row is .05%).

Second off, I'm 100% certain that is NOT a comprehensive list of AV's possible 2hr choices in bracelets mode. I don't even think it's accurate, no offense to Kaeko or VS. PD>Manafont has been reported by us and someone else. HF>BW is definitely a combination (it used it on us on your pop that we killed, and one other kill).

Third, AV has a cooldown on 2hrs. He waits something like ~30-90 seconds after a 2hr (depending on 2hr, + what the AI chooses) before doing another 2hr. If you want to call 3 2hrs insta-wipe, he actually has access to 15 individual ones from 100>69, if he does Mighty Strikes at 75%, he then has to wait 45 seconds before it wears off, and another 10-30 seconds before he has a chance to 2hr again. He really should be dead by then, anyway. This is what happens on the majority of kills...he does a single 2hr before 70%, and half the time dies before he gets to pair 2hrs.

Fourth, Call Wyvern happens far more than other 2hrs (maybe due to him choosing a pet based 2hr, but it seems to happen far more than that even.

Fifth, he still doesn't Charmga. We also killed it once with CS>SV hitting our melee. People just have to keep their cool and keep going. It was definitely one of our rougher kills, but it is by no means an autoloss. Past that, PD>Manafont isn't an autoloss either if you can get a 2nd Perfect Defense up.
Which brings me to my final point, Invincible>Bene is the -only- insta-loss he has access to. Past that, no 2hr before 70% is an instant loss, including Invincible, Benediction, and Perfect Dodge.

I also strongly disagree with it being worth the effort or manpower required to lock 2hrs. Not that I have anything at all against OnEvent and such, but I'd rather not even deal with the frustration of people failing, being unable to get an OnEvent to work, or flat out not wanting to do it. That's not to mention the fact you need another 15 2hrs available to reliably lock them (remember, chances are if you only try to target-lock 4 2hrs, you won't see all 4 in less than an hour). You have to lock random shit to force lower his available options.

[FailureMidgard]

Not sure if its been posted or not but after it deaggro's (lets assume you are having a sac party holding it), does it's regen come back and does it's locked 2hr abilities become unlocked again?

Basically what I'm asking is could I have a party of like 3-4 RDM/NIN CS nuke it to kill it's regen and then let them die. Then when the main alliance engages, would the regen still be off?

Also, could I have a holding party keep saccing while trying to match "Fuck you" 2HR's like PD, Invincible, Benediction. Or does deaggro mean the 2Hr's are no longer locked?

My understanding from the past was all locks (regen and 2hrs) remain upon deaggro. We've most definitely been killing with the assumption regen remained locked, and I'm fairly certain Kaeko was the one that said this.

So, my understand is yes, you can try to match AV's "bad" 2hrs that way, but realistically you will -never- lock all 3-4 of them that way.

[thetruepandagod]

To be fair, I'd think even you'd admit a 12 sample size doesnt speak for the actual % of "fuck you" he can dish out.

15 2 hour options (solo one near start/trio combination after 59% depending on speed). A bad timed PD, Invince, Bene, Manafont, or Charmga can end it (and yes I'm aware you can kill even with those depending on when they go off). Of his 5 2 hour combinations
Call Wyvern >>> Familiar >>> Astral Flow
Invincible >>> Benediction >>> Mijin Gakure
Meikyo Shisui>>> EES >>> EES >>> EES
Mighty Strikes -> HF -> PD
Chainspell >>> Soul Voice [-Virelai Spam-],

2 of them contain the "fuck you" buttons. Saying there isnt a good amount of control about this isnt the same as admitting there is a set % of variability if you dont lock specific 2 hours.

If you have the time/capability, it is always best to try and lock bene/inv/pd/charmga or any of the 2 hours in those pairs.

Blood weapon + hundred fists is all kinds of fun when u have perfect defense wear off.

[Neosutra]

First off, I agree a 12 sample size isn't saying much, but 50% is ridiculous, and if it was 50%, the odds of us doing 11/12 is 0.3%. Do you truly think we got that lucky? I'm making no claims that 11/12 should be everyone's rate, but 50% is insanely far off, and 12 -is- a sufficient sample size to make that claim (The probably of winning 11 in a row is .05%).

Second off, I'm 100% certain that is NOT a comprehensive list of AV's possible 2hr choices in bracelets mode. I don't even think it's accurate, no offense to Kaeko or VS. PD>Manafont has been reported by us and someone else. HF>BW is definitely a combination (it used it on us on your pop that we killed, and one other kill).

Third, AV has a cooldown on 2hrs. He waits something like ~30-90 seconds after a 2hr (depending on 2hr, + what the AI chooses) before doing another 2hr. If you want to call 3 2hrs insta-wipe, he actually has access to 15 individual ones from 100>69, if he does Mighty Strikes at 75%, he then has to wait 45 seconds before it wears off, and another 10-30 seconds before he has a chance to 2hr again. He really should be dead by then, anyway. This is what happens on the majority of kills...he does a single 2hr before 70%, and half the time dies before he gets to pair 2hrs.

Fourth, Call Wyvern happens far more than other 2hrs (maybe due to him choosing a pet based 2hr, but it seems to happen far more than that even.

Fifth, he still doesn't Charmga. We also killed it once with CS>SV hitting our melee. People just have to keep their cool and keep going. It was definitely one of our rougher kills, but it is by no means an autoloss. Past that, PD>Manafont isn't an autoloss either if you can get a 2nd Perfect Defense up.
Which brings me to my final point, Invincible>Bene is the -only- insta-loss he has access to. Past that, no 2hr before 70% is an instant loss, including Invincible, Benediction, and Perfect Dodge.

I also strongly disagree with it being worth the effort or manpower required to lock 2hrs. Not that I have anything at all against OnEvent and such, but I'd rather not even deal with the frustration of people failing, being unable to get an OnEvent to work, or flat out not wanting to do it. That's not to mention the fact you need another 15 2hrs available to reliably lock them (remember, chances are if you only try to target-lock 4 2hrs, you won't see all 4 in less than an hour). You have to lock random shit to force lower his available options.

1. I didnt say 50%, or anything close. I was pointing out the sample size isnt enough, and we should instead look at the number of 2 hours that can end the fight over the number of 2 hours he can use in that duration as a more accurate % of "fuck you".

2. I already stated that you can still win based on 'when' he uses them.

3. Obviously when I say Charmga I mean SV -> single target charm spam.

4. See # 2 for "how easy it is to kill if he uses charmga".

5. I'm not suggesting you spend an hour trying to lock each 2 hour, but it wouldnt hurt to toss a thf in your holding party while you're chainspell nuking. Have them with ondemand and with the plds/whms/blm you already have in the "kill 2nd half of regen" party, you can lock PD/Invince/bene/manafont/CS if you're lucky. Doesn't hurt a thing to do this.

Just because one shell deals with charmga doesnt mean it will be the exact same for the next, as it depends on when he uses it (and if he uses again once people are uncharmed lol). We "dealt" with manafont easily, but as you found out on one of your last pops, a 2% manafont when PD is wearing can end you.

You're getting too defensive here. People arent saying "omg Res you're getting lucky and it isnt skill". We're just pointing out there is a higher degree of variability than you are trying to portray, and there are other options to control those variables -if you choose-.

[FailureMidgard]

1. I didnt say 50%, or anything close. I was pointing out the sample size isnt enough, and we should instead look at the number of 2 hours that can end the fight over the number of 2 hours he can use in that duration as a more accurate % of "fuck you".

...and ignore the majority of the time he doesn't use a single combination? Solid plan. Did you read my post, at all? If he does one of the 11 other 2hrs between 100 and 70%, it is pretty easy to kill him before he ever initiates a 2hr combination.

Also, my first reply was to someone who said under 50%, which I then quoted numbers. YOU then replied to that and tried to call my sample size wrong. I then replied to you and pointed out my sample size was perfectly fine to justify my original claim that 50% is out of the realm of possibility, and now you are saying you never said 50%. Don't respond to my post to someone else and call me wrong if you agree my numbers are adequate to call the original post I responded to wrong.
You also listed 5 2hr combinations, called 2 of them "Fuck you" buttons, then in the next post suggested we use this ratio as the chance to fail, or 40% chance to fail and 60% chance to win, which is still really far off (and past that, inaccurate).

2. I already stated that you can still win based on 'when' he uses them.

You can get him to not 2hr based on 'when' he uses them more often than not. You can still win regardless when he uses them for all 2hrs besides Benediction.

3. Obviously when I say Charmga I mean SV -> single target charm spam.

Except, when I talked to you ingame, you act like it's almost instant. SV without CS is 1 charm per 10 seconds at most. SV is actually a pretty 'nice' 2hr if your bards are paying attention because it's so long and drawn out.

4. See # 2 for "how easy it is to kill if he uses charmga".

We killed it, mostly fine. SV is a pretty tame 2hr, quoting Kaeko/VS, emphasis mine:

Soul Voice 90 second duration; will cast Maiden’s Virelai roughly every 10 seconds (more often in bracelets mode); will not use TP moves or other spells while active

It virtually guarantees you the ability to get off a 2nd PD.

5. I'm not suggesting you spend an hour trying to lock each 2 hour, but it wouldnt hurt to toss a thf in your holding party while you're chainspell nuking. Have them with ondemand and with the plds/whms/blm you already have in the "kill 2nd half of regen" party, you can lock PD/Invince/bene/manafont/CS if you're lucky. Doesn't hurt a thing to do this.

He shouldn't use more than 2 2hrs while locking regen. You'd have to get insanely lucky to lock a 2hr you want to. Also, why on earth would you want to to lock Manafont and Chainspell? That's going to make it harder, not easier...That being said, ASSUMING you have the extra characters/mules to lock PD/Invincible/Benediction, I do agree it doesn't hurt (and we tried to do that the first kill, but when we locked 0 still, just gave up on trying to find spare 2hrs to bother).

Just because one shell deals with charmga doesnt mean it will be the exact same for the next, as it depends on when he uses it (and if he uses again once people are uncharmed lol). We "dealt" with manafont easily, but as you found out on one of your last pops, a 2% manafont when PD is wearing can end you.

PD wearing off ends you, manafont is irrelevant. All he needs to do is Impact Stream/Explosive Impulse and we'll be stunned for 10 seconds anyway while he hits for 800 per...not to mention HF/BW (on the kill we got from you, he had HF+BW up at low % and was hitting/healing through PD for 200 a hit at HF speed, which is why the end was so slow and such, oh, and our songs were wearing 'cause we had no idea how long it'd take you to wipe it). Also, we lost because of the PD preceding it and the ~50 dodges he got before Manafonting, and the fact I completely fucked up and forgot we didn't have a dragoon in the alliance and didn't get 1 in to Angon (Kill was slow, WS averages were low).

You're getting too defensive here. People arent saying "omg Res you're getting lucky and it isnt skill". We're just pointing out there is a higher degree of variability than you are trying to portray, and there are other options to control those variables -if you choose-.

My initial guess was 75% win rate. I personally now feel that was a low estimate. 50% is ridiculous, and nowhere near accurate. In no way do I feel the least bit defensive...quite the opposite, I'm just using our numbers to show how incorrect and completely bogus that guess is. My current guess is closer to 85-90% without locking AV's 2hrs.

You're deluding yourself on thinking you're going to magically lock the 2hrs. Outside of our zerg attempts, we've somehow fucked up saccing 2 times and had him depop, and I don't count our first kill in the statistics I'm doing (though I'm fine counting it towards our overall success rate - we didn't lose to anything AV did, we were just bad and had PD wear off at like 35%) where weren't the least bit prepared, didn't have a sound strategy, got no more than 4 songs, had a hunter's roll, and a ton more mistakes. So counting all of that, we've done 15 fights now. While locking regen I've seen SV 0 times, PD 0 times, Benediction 0 times and Invincible I think once. If that is your great control plan, good luck, (and I still have no earthly idea why you'd lock Manafont or CS; CS is one of the absolute best 2hrs he can use, and Manafont is a nice choice too, they are both 60 second locks to him doing anything else bad, and if used about 70% at all virtually guarantee no 2nd 2hr) but chances are most the time you won't be changing the fight at all, though you will get lucky every now and then (as a side note, a more important control aspect is to be sure you kill Wynavs if they pop...).

[Neosutra]

God damn you're fucking hard headed.

[vagus]

100! page. Hmm. Time to gear up the war for this fight.

[Byrthnoth]

Oh sure, post the parse where I actually have less than 100% ACC.

Not that it matters, my #s in every fight seems to be around the same.

If I am not mistaken, I see that Wuffi is still cheating on me with you when I'm not on Dragoon (I know where he goes!) Well, I don't care anymore. He was always a wyvernwhore anyway. Tell him not to come back. I'm replacing him with a more manly sounding wyvern that won't cheat on me cross servers.

[Salmijr]

I personally like when AV Manafonts. With PD up, takes 2 meteors to break stoneskin pre bracelets...

[Shadida]

I apologize if this has been answered before, but does PD overwrite itself? Or do you need it to wear off before the next SMN could use it?

[Salmijr]

Does not overwrite.

[Neosutra]

Ya what Salm said, doesn't overwrite and cant cancel.

[Salmijr]

Since alot of the strategy is already out, i'll say this...... There is a 9 second delay between when you cast alex , and when you get the buff. Time/plan accordingly in case you need the 2nd PD.

[Shalafi]

If I drop the SMN from my party, how long till the effect is gone?

[Neosutra]

90 seconds after the effect starts, if the Smn used it with > 900 mp.

[Salmijr]

Grats on kill neo.

[bechyni]

God I parsed so shitty on that AV;;

[Salmijr]

At least you guys are using Red Curry buns now tho.