Absolute Virtue Information (OP Updated)

[Thorny]

SMNs seperate pt, BP then die(which will unclaim it)

if it has a nasty 2hr up hymnus sac a couple lv1s until it wears? won't regen unless it's unclaimed 10s, so if you have that many bodies, you may as well for safety

[Thorny]

3 smn takes off 27.1% (10+9+8.1). If you are to assume the PDT is 50% and happens with bracelets(has there been a better quantification? i just glanced at failure's meleeswing log a while ago), you're looking at 160% of it's hp effectively. Congratulations, you just took off 17% of your zerg.. that's a pretty decent amount if you have the bodies to spare.

[FailureMidgard]

SMNs seperate pt, BP then die(which will unclaim it)

if it has a nasty 2hr up hymnus sac a couple lv1s until it wears? won't regen unless it's unclaimed 10s, so if you have that many bodies, you may as well for safety

Cept, it's being said to do it after songs are up. Unless your songs are perfect with minstrels /rdm/etc (ours never have been, I know Neos haven't either), you're gonna end up with 4 songs per party very likely, which is going to be a loss in the end. Furthermore, the opposite can happen and you do too much damage too fast (if he doesn't 2hr) and his first 2hr is a chain, which is generally bad news as the chains are just all around worse than singles.

We're killing AV with nothing special before PD wears off from our first summoner line - I don't really see the point of complicating it for little to no benefit. I agree if you execute it perfectly, it will be "Easier", but if you're executing perfectly, it's a joke of a fight (we're now like 17/18..and the 1 loss I was an idiot and forgot to make sure we had Angon, we killed it slower than usual and it PDed at 3%, then killed our 2nd smn line as they tried to alexander), so if you're executing it properly, you don't need this BS at all anyway...and not trying to offend here, just being honest, but Neo, if you guys were executing properly, you would have killed it before the 4th try or w/e. I really think it's adding unnecessary complication and room for things to go wrong.

Just to use an analogy that I think is fair, but not really the same thing exactly - trying to solo on rdm, you'll kill "faster" if you start casting Bio .5 sec before it wears off, and perfectly time it. But if you're fighting something potentially dangerous, it's better to wait a few seconds and cast it at a time that is opportune, not in the middle of getting firaga4ed.

{Edit: this is a good response to the 2 latest posts too, I think you're vastly overrating how much it will up success rate.}

[Thorny]

Just to use an analogy that I think is fair, but not really the same thing exactly - trying to solo on rdm, you'll kill "faster" if you start casting Bio .5 sec before it wears off, and perfectly time it. But if you're fighting something potentially dangerous, it's better to wait a few seconds and cast it at a time that is opportune, not in the middle of getting firaga4ed.

Terrible analogy. If you can coordinate it such that you're engaging with 17% less damage required, your chances of fail go down significantly. Yes, if you have 20+ bodies in zone with good coordination and gear and engage speed/ws speed.. entirely unnecessary. If you don't, it matters.

[FailureMidgard]

Terrible analogy. If you can coordinate it such that you're engaging with 17% less damage required, your chances of fail go down significantly. Yes, if you have 20+ bodies in zone with good coordination and gear and engage speed/ws speed.. entirely unnecessary. If you don't, it matters.

You're still ignoring the fact that he can either 2hr while the smns die (it's going to take longer than you think it will) or you may completely skip the solo 2hr and force his first 2hr to be in bracelets mode, aka chain, aka higher chance of getting fucked. I would honestly opt to engage at 100% OVER engaging at 70%, because I think you have a much higher chance of getting fucked engaging at 70%. And I'm saying this 100% based on our logs and the fact most the time we don't even get a 2hr combination because he does a single 2hr around 75-80% and dies usually before, sometimes right as he initiates his next 2hr set (like, we've seen a CS as he died, but no SV after because he was dead).

[Neosutra]

Well, a good compromise would be what I already stated above:

If you have 1-2 extra smns, invite them instead of your 2 whms and have them Odin at the start when your melees first engage then drop for the whms. You get a free 15k, no timing problems, and the only down side being your whms are vulnerable, which is a gamble you would have to decide whether to take.

Saying "well it's killable now if you do it right" is irrelevant. People are just trying to find ways to be more efficient.

The one good point I've heard from you Failure is if you start out zerging with lower HP%, he has a higher chance of his first 2 hour being a chained 2 hour, which may be worse than dealing with 1 2 hour (depending on kill speed). Honestly, I believe if you just had one Smn use Odin, it would still pop a single 2 hour before bracelets mode, as melees would still need to take it from 90% to 59% before chaining.

Also, gonna add a "no shit" as a response to the "if you guys were doing it right the first couple times you would have won those 2 fights". I'm promoting you to Captain Obvious, congrats. We had a multitude of errors in our first 2 attempts, from inefficent setup, to shitty swaps. All you can do for that is learn from your mistakes and get better. I have a wide range of LS members, ranging from some of the best players across all servers, to people that are just good friends and like to have fun. You work with what you have, and when someone makes a mistake you just nicely skull fuck them, correct it, then do better next time.

[bechyni]

Wasn't it volume's original plan to take it to 80% then start zerg? At least that's what Navid was saying but he'll come on here say he didn't.

[Iremire]

Wasn't it volume's original plan to take it to 80% then start zerg? At least that's what Navid was saying but he'll come on here say he didn't.

Not with Smn's odining, this was also when we planned on locking 2 hours. We really did that too right? We played with the idea of taking it down to 70% while locking 2 hours. We obviously didn't need too seeing as we killed it 17 times with out.

But, if people wanna use odin to take it down cause their damage is too slow or their top dd's are Homam body apocs, then by all means go for it if it helps you kill it then that's great.

[FailureMidgard]

Well, a good compromise would be what I already stated above:

If you have 1-2 extra smns, invite them instead of your 2 whms and have them Odin at the start when your melees first engage then drop for the whms. You get a free 15k, no timing problems, and the only down side being your whms are vulnerable, which is a gamble you would have to decide whether to take.

May be ok, but again, there is loss, and we've seen it get very messy when we didnt give whms a PD due to a meteor, then heavy damage later on at the end of PD (HF/BW hits for 200/hit and heals it). I'm not saying there's no way to make it work, but its a lot of effort for little, if ANY reward.

Saying "well it's killable now if you do it right" is irrelevant. People are just trying to find ways to be more efficient.

When the proposed addition makes the hardest part of the fight (organization/invites) more complicated, it's quite a relevant point. You seem to be missing that from my posts - the only way you should lose this fight is if you have errors in this area. You are adding room for error any way you look at it with Odin. This is ignoring the fact that doing it before you engage can ruin the "nice" timing in 2 different ways.

The one good point I've heard from you Failure is if you start out zerging with lower HP%, he has a higher chance of his first 2 hour being a chained 2 hour, which may be worse than dealing with 1 2 hour (depending on kill speed). Honestly, I believe if you just had one Smn use Odin, it would still pop a single 2 hour before bracelets mode, as melees would still need to take it from 90% to 59% before chaining.

I definitely agree there may be some good middle ground where you are getting free damage, but is it worth risking an AV to test this? I'd personally say no. I'm also not sure that you won't occasionally mess it up even with only 1 Odin. I'm fairly certain 2 will fuck it over.

Also, gonna add a "no shit" as a response to the "if you guys were doing it right the first couple times you would have won those 2 fights". I'm promoting you to Captain Obvious, congrats. We had a multitude of errors in our first 2 attempts, from inefficent setup, to shitty swaps. All you can do for that is learn from your mistakes and get better. I have a wide range of LS members, ranging from some of the best players across all servers, to people that are just good friends and like to have fun. You work with what you have, and when someone makes a mistake you just nicely skull fuck them, correct it, then do better next time.

And yet, you want to add more complication? Sounds brilliant. Continuing with the obviousness (or not, since you seem to be missing it), when you failed 3 times because invites and other random bullshit fucked up, why on earth would you want to add -more- randomness to the fight when damage output isn't why you wipe generally (though I guess you guys did kill pretty slow also).

Wasn't it volume's original plan to take it to 80% then start zerg? At least that's what Navid was saying but he'll come on here say he didn't.

How does this even matter? Yea, we originally planned to do that, but then we did our first AV attempt, "dry run" you can call it - and got it to 27% with all sorts of fuck ups and things going poorly, then we revise our strategy based on the fact we felt we could kill it from 100>0 in a single zerg. Then we did that. Since then we've killed it an additional 16 times, and what I'm saying now is based on my experiences with timing, how the fight goes, and what causes you to potentially fail or make the zerg messy. Yes, our original plan has been improved on, which is what I am now posting here. Stop trying to start shit when you're just being retarded. We also considered locking the "fuck you" 2hrs, but after our first shot, decided that was also an unnecessary complication.

[jmc]

Man, this thread is so much better than it was a month ago now.

[Thorny]

Cept no offense, you're ignoring my point, I don't generally like to pull the "you haven't done it" card, but you're completely wrong in assuming that more damage is always good, I've looked over our fight log from every single fight, and unless you think his 2hr is % based and not time from engaged based, you are almost guaranteeing a 2hr pair, when we saw it ~1/4 fights (and it's the only thing that can make it remotely challenging).

I'm sure it is time engaged based. What I'm missing is how saccing while you change jobs can be coordinated such that you have an appropriate time until 2hr remaining when you begin, but saccing a damaged mob cannot. If you have the firepower, don't need it. If you don't, it's a pretty significant bonus available.. I don't see the problem with suggesting it and it seems you're just trying to validate Iremire's grudge. I have no personal issue with any of these people(if anything Neo, but I don't consider it one).

[FailureMidgard]

I'm sure it is time engaged based. What I'm missing is how saccing while you change jobs can be coordinated such that you have an appropriate time until 2hr remaining when you begin, but saccing a damaged mob cannot. If you have the firepower, don't need it. If you don't, it's a pretty significant bonus available.. I don't see the problem with suggesting it and it seems you're just trying to validate Iremire's grudge. I have no personal issue with any of these people(if anything Neo, but I don't consider it one).

Our last sac is ~60-90 seconds before we engage (bard time is called, sac happens like 10 seconds before that 'cause it's actually 1 of our pt leaders 2boxing usually). Any 2hr that happens is long off when we engage. Your Odin/sac is happening after bards have already 2hred. I mean, I guess if it does a bad 2hr, you can sac longer and go find more cors (as if the 24-27 people we're using without extra Odins isn't already hard enough to get) or shout for them to reset 2hrs, but that's your only real option besides committing to a bad scenario. Also, this still messes up timing, because even if he does a 2hr that isn't bad (let's say MS), you started the cooldown earlier than us, and he may not 2hr again until 70%, and will then 2hr between 70-40% or w/e, again, doing a 2hr combination in bracelet mode that is far worse than a solo 2hr at 80%.

Past that, it's only one of the 2 issues. If you do 3 Odins, it doesn't regen, and is at 70% and all your DDs have 300TP, chances are you force bracelets before it opts to 2hr (though won't always), which is making the fight -harder- not easier.

It's honestly not going to help the fight. If you wanted to make use of an extra Odin (or for that matter, extra rangers, etc), I'd suggest you invite them between 80>50% or whatever and accept a loss of 1-2k dmg on Odin. We also don't rotate extra people on RNG in though to like Sidewinder>EES>Barrage>Sidewinder, but it -could- up our damage. It honestly is adding unnecessary complication that if someone invites the wrong person, or dcs with an invite, suddenly you can't get the people in that are more important...

[Thorny]

Your Odin/sac is happening after bards have already 2hred.

Where the fuck did I say that?

I mean, I guess if it does a bad 2hr, you can sac longer and go find more cors (as if the 24-27 people we're using without extra Odins isn't already hard enough to get) or shout for them to reset 2hrs, but that's your only real option besides committing to a bad scenario. Also, this still messes up timing, because even if he does a 2hr that isn't bad (let's say MS), you started the cooldown earlier than us, and he may not 2hr again until 70%, and will then 2hr between 70-40% or w/e, again, doing a 2hr combination in bracelet mode that is far worse than a solo 2hr at 80%.

SMNs damage, sac with lv1s until it's about ready to 2h while you buff. 2hrs closer to 60% and you have a longer period of safety before a 2hr combination..? It's not as retarded as you want to call it, it's a matter of how many people you have and how much overkill your setup is. It's a pretty big safety net if you used it properly: starting at 70% with a 2h between 60-70% gives you the full PD 90 seconds to do 60% -> dead. For that matter, you could buff then turn at 65% until a 2h starts. If PD wears down too far, you can (moderately safely) reapply it outside a 2h combo.

Past that, it's only one of the 2 issues. If you do 3 Odins, it doesn't regen, and is at 70% and all your DDs have 300TP, chances are you force bracelets before it opts to 2hr (though won't always), which is making the fight -harder- not easier.

You're oversimplifying, there are ways to coordinate it so that doesn't happen.

It's honestly not going to help the fight. If you wanted to make use of an extra Odin (or for that matter, extra rangers, etc), I'd suggest you invite them between 80>50% or whatever and accept a loss of 1-2k dmg on Odin. We also don't rotate extra people on RNG in though to like Sidewinder>EES>Barrage>Sidewinder, but it -could- up our damage. It honestly is adding unnecessary complication that if someone invites the wrong person, or dcs with an invite, suddenly you can't get the people in that are more important...

There is a lot that can go wrong. I'm not going to claim I know more about this than you, but I don't see a good reason not to use odins if you have the bodies(or even mules.. odinning requires very little on a char and any 2008-2010 era dualbox has smn75+.

[thetruepandagod]

We have done the odin 2hr at the start of av's as our 4th songs are being sung, honestly its probably the simplest thing about the entire fight i have no idea why people are saying its difficult or blah blah. If you have extra smn's do it.

[Shin Volcano]

We have done the odin 2hr at the start of av's as our 4th songs are being sung, honestly its probably the simplest thing about the entire fight i have no idea why people are saying its difficult or blah blah. If you have extra smn's do it.

Because it's not needed, is the whole point i was trying to make before this dumb mud slinging all began.

[FailureMidgard]

Where the fuck did I say that?

Sorry, got posts confused, Neosutra said "Takes all of 3 seconds to have 1-2 Smns Odin 2 hour 20 seconds before you're about to zerg." 20 seconds kinda implies that. But yea, if you're saying to do it a minute before and just accept the 3-4k HP it'll regen in a minute, then that's fine, but it still leaves an issue of an uncontrolled 2hr going off mid bard songs, which as I described we cannot have happen, which is added control for us. Also, that's a ton of extra bodies/coordination for still what I think is almost no benefit and can be a problem if you don't micromanage the fuck out of it.

SMNs damage, sac with lv1s until it's about ready to 2h while you buff. 2hrs closer to 60% and you have a longer period of safety before a 2hr combination..? It's not as retarded as you want to call it, it's a matter of how many people you have and how much overkill your setup is. It's a pretty big safety net if you used it properly: starting at 70% with a 2h between 60-70% gives you the full PD 90 seconds to do 60% -> dead. For that matter, you could buff then turn at 65% until a 2h starts. If PD wears down too far, you can (moderately safely) reapply it outside a 2h combo.

You're ignoring Impact Stream and the pure rape AV is capable of. First off, he can stun Alexander with a TP move (and there's a 9 second window there for people to get fucked). Second off he can meteor whenever he wants to (and in fact, if you slow damage, you ruin the AI-lock potential so he likely -will- meteor), which can kill a smn running in, etc. I'd think you'd basically need to hold it at 65% without PD, wait for a good 2hr, then PD, then zerg. At this point though, there's no real reason to use Odin, you can do it legitimately and lock 2hrs while you're at it (which really is the best way to do this if you want to bother with organization and have the people for it).

You're oversimplifying, there are ways to coordinate it so that doesn't happen.

Which is just opening up more room for error...I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying it's not making the fight any easier to pull off.

There is a lot that can go wrong. I'm not going to claim I know more about this than you, but I don't see a good reason not to use odins if you have the bodies(or even mules.. odinning requires very little on a char and any 2008-2010 era dualbox has smn75+.

If you have the bodies, I'm virtually 100% certain you're better off splitting into 2 zerg allies (even if it's 2 parties per) and going back-to-back. Makes Bene absolutely the only thing that can go wrong.

Again, the entire premise I'm arguing from is it's quite easy to do 100>0% in ~75-85 seconds. Reapplying PD is definitely doable, but it opens up the door to an instant wipe (actually, it's how we lost our 1 time). Doing this turning stuff is not going to make the fight easier on you. It's just opening the door for AV to be a dick and fuck you over.

We have done the odin 2hr at the start of av's as our 4th songs are being sung, honestly its probably the simplest thing about the entire fight i have no idea why people are saying its difficult or blah blah. If you have extra smn's do it.

I'm curious what your win rate is? 1/1?

[Eugene]

I'm sorry if this has already been answered/is obvious but I haven't completely parsed through the veritable shitstorm of drama posts in the 14 pages that have been posted since av was first re defeated.


Is anyone attempting to lock regen in some manner before the zerg begins, or are the 1/2 cs rdms in for the duration of zerg?

[Mazmaz]

Yes, 1st half of regen is getting 9 JoL pets. 2nd half of regen is CS nuke with same element of the day. Sac after that (regen doesn't come back if unclaimed). We lock it every time.

[Salmijr]

[B]EDITS

The Current State of Absolute Virtue
- Auto-Regen (low at ~2%/minute or ~60HP/tick)

This effect begins extremely strong, but is lowered by (1) killing Jailer of Love pets until only Ru'Phuabos are spawned (takes roughly ~15-20 sets of pet spawns), and (2) casting elemental spells on Absolute Virtue corresponding to the current day (roughly 60 casts, damage not relevant). For example, if currently Lightsday, spam Dia. After this is done, regen can not increase or reset, even upon full wipe, Call for Help, etc.

AV's AI hasn't changed since the kc nerf/2hr depop patch. I guess not enough testing was done back then due to meteor rape, but its not 15-20 sets (maybe this was lowered in the 2 hr depop patch?)

If the Op is still updated, someone should change that to a 9 .

[Plow]

AV's AI hasn't changed since the kc nerf/2hr depop patch. I guess not enough testing was done back then due to meteor rape, but its not 15-20 sets (maybe this was lowered in the 2 hr depop patch?)

If the Op is still updated, someone should change that to a 9 .

I think Kaeko can still update it.

VS hasn't posted since March, though, and it's actually kinda funny...

his last post:

You can't beat AV with 6 in 2hrs even at 99 lol.... it isn't possible. In order to lock Benedicition you would either have to wait for it, which could take forever, or you would have to lock other 2hrs so the probability it uses it increases which speeds up the locking of it. Even if you did lock it, you couldn't possibly live to an AV with full 2hrs when it gets to bracelets mode. AV definitely will be beat at 99 (unless they buff it), but not without sufficient number of players still.

aaand first post after it...

in before Perfect Defense melee zerg