Absolute Virtue Information (OP Updated)

[Hogie]

I know this is a stupid long shot, but maaaaaybe you can lock meteor with pup 2h ... they did add it to the Jailer weapons for no reason but at the same time... SE does like to do random things for no reason

[Jeryhn]

Yes I use flawless ribbon and yes I have thought about the potential that it is resisting like fealty, but it is extremely unlikely because flawless ribbon resisting ailments is not high % chance at all, and I resisted almost every meteor by at least 1/2 using the set I had. The most likely case is that Meteor is dark magic like others suggested, and that is why fealty resists it. However if we fight AV again, or I am on during a KB I'll try just flawless. We don't really have enough people to try AV all the time anymore sadly, or at all really.

When it comes to Comet, you're spot-on. Comet is definitely dark-elemental.

According to POLUtis, Meteor is considered an elemental magic that deals special-type elemental damage, the type we associate as non-elemental. Fealty has been shown to reduce damage received on several forms of this special non-elemental magic damage - Meteor, Chi Blast, Formless Strikes, and Spirits Within too, I believe. We don't know why Fealty does this - only that it does. I'm fairly sure there could be other opportunities to test how Fealty reduces the damage that is received by this element if we can find other forms of this damage being dealt elsewhere in Vana'diel.

And while the proc rate on the Flawless Ribbon is low when it comes to status effects, defense against magical damage and defense against status effects are two wholly separate things. Obviously, the Flawless Ribbon needs to be tested on Meteor by itself as a control group.

Strictly speaking, however, AV came out before Group 2 Merits. Assuming that there is a legitimate strategy that players are supposed to employ to defeat AV (and for all we know, there likely isn't, not to mention if you can call whatever method is supposed to be employed "legitimate" for that matter), Fealty and resistance setups aren't going to be the key to defeating or surviving AV - rather the purpose they serve is to keep you alive long enough to try and determine what the "legitimate" strategy to defeating him is.

My vote goes towards a potential lock method. AV has always been a "buggy" mob in the sense that its abilities become locked, and I can't think of any other mob in the game where this is true. If there is a definite strategy towards killing AV, it lies within the method of locking its abilities, and that will likely include its use of Meteor.

[Virtuous Saint]

You don't have to lock it to kill AV, if there was just a way to weaken it back to non-bracelets/manafonted Meteor you're golden. The fact is, AV's design is such that you have to lock its traits/abilities in order to defeat it, and like AV, other CoP mobs were designed with the same thoughts. CoP dynamis for example, you lock things from the bosses by doing certain things in the zone. AV was just poorly designed as the required methods to lock are not evident at all so there was never a chance for the player base to kill AV without a ridiculous number of hints and tips.

[Killkenny]

I might have missed something, and assuming meteor is infact a dark based spell, wouldn't fighting on lights day with light obi, a sch and cor rotating for weather and rolls on pretty much perfectly geared aegis tanks, and an asorb party make meteor easily survivable. Combined with the ramp this should remove his ability to wipe you completely even if he uses meteor 2 times between 2hrs. This would atleast make the next stage of the fight (up to 39%?) somewhat feasible.

[Virtuous Saint]

I might have missed something, and assuming meteor is infact a dark based spell, wouldn't fighting on lights day with light obi, a sch and cor rotating for weather and rolls on pretty much perfectly geared aegis tanks, and an asorb party make meteor easily survivable. Combined with the ramp this should remove his ability to wipe you completely even if he uses meteor 2 times between 2hrs. This would atleast make the next stage of the fight (up to 39%?) somewhat feasible.

Yes, but you would lock all 2hrs and it was stated in the other thread that a SCH's weather wouldn't reduce damage. So basically, take to the ramp asap, (time everything so lightsday will just be starting when you reach 59%), all PLD just idle in korin obi at all times, there is nothing more necessary than ensuring you take -10% damage every time a Meteor goes off. Keep rolls on everyone, including RDM/SMN absorbers, and a SCH will Accession Rapture CureIV the absorbers after every Meteor hits so they can focus on getting buffs and summoning carbuncle before next Meteor is casted. If you have enough players you could kill it, I am highly confident.

[Suiram]

This topic is peppered with discussion about Meteor and Comet that ignores a lot of past topics' discussions about their nature. So I just want to put forward what I'm fairly sure of based on everything up until now. Meteor is a Dark-aligned spell in the Dark Magic family of spells, which is unaffected by day/weather conditions.

Dark Element (as opposed to, say, Stun, which is Lightning Element Dark Magic) since Dark resist gear increases resist rate.

Dark Magic since Fealty forces resist and only seems to do so for Enfeebling and Dark spells (despite what Jeryhn posted above, others have reported that Fealty will not reduce non-elemental magic, so maybe this is up in the air)

Unaffected by Day/Weather since Einherjar KB in triple-dark conditions showed no variation in damage (maybe there is some other explanation for this)

Comet most likely also possesses the exact same attributes as Meteor, but with a different damage formula (and being single-target).


Edit: By unaffected I mean damage-formulawise, it might have some effect on accuracy.

[Virtuous Saint]

This topic is peppered with discussion about Meteor and Comet that ignores a lot of past topics' discussions about their nature. So I just want to put forward what I'm fairly sure of based on everything up until now. Meteor is a Dark-aligned spell in the Dark Magic family of spells, which is unaffected by day/weather conditions.

Dark Element (as opposed to, say, Stun, which is Lightning Element Dark Magic) since Dark resist gear increases resist rate.

Dark Magic since Fealty forces resist and only seems to do so for Enfeebling and Dark spells (despite what Jeryhn posted above, others have reported that Fealty will not reduce non-elemental magic, so maybe this is up in the air)

Unaffected by Day/Weather since Einherjar KB in triple-dark conditions showed no variation in damage (maybe there is some other explanation for this)

Comet most likely also possesses the exact same attributes as Meteor, but with a different damage formula (and being single-target).

Good point with the Einherjar KB, could be possible day/weather do not affect it, but I don't see why they wouldn't.

[Suiram]

Well the reason I qualified what I wrote as I was typing it is that I know that the KS99 Behemoth has 2 meteors, its regular spell and its final WS. And I realized that maybe the Einherjar version is different like the 2nd KS99 Meteor, so maybe that doesn't get a damage bonus/reduction based on day/weather while the spell would. (Or for whatever reason maybe it's one way with Einherjar KB and another way with other Meteors, including AV's.)

[Michelob]

My vote goes towards a potential lock method. AV has always been a "buggy" mob in the sense that its abilities become locked, and I can't think of any other mob in the game where this is true.

Odin also can become "bugged". Many shells have had Odins that became locked somehow and never used any special moves at all, including Zantetsuken.

[Killkenny]

Unaffected by Day/Weather since Einherjar KB in triple-dark conditions showed no variation in damage (maybe there is some other explanation for this)

Is this proven or tested somewhere? I have done the path many times but I can safely say I haven't been hit by one of its meteor in the last 2+ years so I am unable to share any experiences with it.

I say that because I would assume it would be the same for most groups fighting Kaiser Behemoth that you would never/extremely rarely get hit by its meteor.

[Suiram]

Is this proven or tested somewhere? I have done the path many times but I can safely say I haven't been hit by one of its meteor in the last 2+ years so I am unable to share any experiences with it.

I say that because I would assume it would be the same for most groups fighting Kaiser Behemoth that you would never/extremely rarely get hit by its meteor.

I was talking about the Wing 3 Einherjar boss, not limbus. But it's from a topic about this a few months ago (the one where someone later demonstrated that Fealty reduces Dark Magic spells). My LS had just fought the KB boss in Einherjar and I asked anyone who wasn't using stoneskin to tell me what damage they took throughout. There were 6 or 7 responses from people eating 3-4 meteors each, and there was no change in damage that could account for a day/weather proc.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2863794-post246.html

[Killkenny]

If im not mistaken weather bonuses can apply to dark magic type spells such as drain. It would seem silly to affiliate meteor to dark magic if other dark magic spells recieve weather bonuses and then to claim that they don't affect meteor.

Meteor damage is going to vary by a fairly decent amount from person to person anyway and in such an uncontrolled environment like einherjar it would be difficult to account for buffs and varying amounts of int, especially towards the end of the run some buffs may have worn off. Whm's Afflatus Sollace alone would greatly skew damage you could be recieving as the stoneskin from a cure V is quite substantial.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that its not a controlled test and doesn't really prove what you are saying although it does support it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why not just go into Apollyon NW with a few mages? You can clear up to every non-KB with plenty of time to mess around with the Kaiser. As mentioned, you can just repeatedly sac and wait to see if any weather procs occur.

[Virtuous Saint]

Why not just go into Apollyon NW with a few mages? You can clear up to every non-KB with plenty of time to mess around with the Kaiser. As mentioned, you can just repeatedly sac and wait to see if any weather procs occur.

I intend to do this very shortly actually lol. It is iceday right now, I want to be fighting it during lightsday so I can just put on obi and get hit twice.

[Suiram]

If im not mistaken weather bonuses can apply to dark magic type spells such as drain. It would seem silly to affiliate meteor to dark magic if other dark magic spells recieve weather bonuses and then to claim that they don't affect meteor.

Meteor damage is going to vary by a fairly decent amount from person to person anyway and in such an uncontrolled environment like einherjar it would be difficult to account for buffs and varying amounts of int, especially towards the end of the run some buffs may have worn off. Whm's Afflatus Sollace alone would greatly skew damage you could be recieving as the stoneskin from a cure V is quite substantial.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that its not a controlled test and doesn't really prove what you are saying although it does support it.

The damage did vary from person to person, but for each individual the damage was the same across all casts. There were no WHMs, and everything else is accounted for (I mentioned the first time that there was a variation in one case that upon closer inspection was found to have been caused by shell wearing.)

But yeah, I wasn't offering it as concrete proof either, although it is a strong suggestion. But I'm glad VS is going to test it.

[Jeryhn]

Dark Magic since Fealty forces resist and only seems to do so for Enfeebling and Dark spells (despite what Jeryhn posted above, others have reported that Fealty will not reduce non-elemental magic, so maybe this is up in the air)

By Dark Magic, do you mean Dark magic which deals dark-elemental damage (Bio, Drain) or the complete dark magic classification?

Take Bio for instance. Fealty shouldn't reduce the amount of initial damage you take from the spell, but it should prevent the Bio status effect from landing on you. This is because Fealty doesn't reduce damage from standard elemental magic.

Another easy test: Comet is a dark-elemental spell according to POLUtis (and Dark magic by classification too, if I'm not mistaken). Fealty shouldn't reduce the damage one takes from Comet, but a dark-elemental magic resist set and Dark Carol should. Promathia and pixies like to cast this spell, so there are ways to test outside of AV.

Unaffected by Day/Weather since Einherjar KB in triple-dark conditions showed no variation in damage (maybe there is some other explanation for this)

This is because the type of damage Meteor deals out is of the aforementioned non-element.
There is not another damage spell in the game which deals non-elemental damage, nor is there another damage spell in the game not effected by day/weather/obis.

Again, its simple. If Meteor was classified as a dark-elemental spell, standard resist setups excluding the Flawless Ribbon would have shown to reduce damage from anything that casts Meteor. Fealty most likely blocks damage received from Meteor because its damage doesn't consist of any of the standard eight elements, therefore the game programming classes it as a status-type attack which deals direct damage.

Comet most likely also possesses the exact same attributes as Meteor, but with a different damage formula (and being single-target).

Actually, the two spells are fairly different.
According to POLUtis, Comet should be a Dark Magic classified spell which deals dark-elemental damage. It also costs well over 100 MP to cast.
Meteor is an Elemental Magic classified spell which deals special-elemental (non-elemental) damage. It costs 1 MP to cast.

Ever wonder why kiting Kirin til it ran out of MP was a legitimate strategy in 2004, and doing it with King Behemoth wasn't (let's ignore the fact that Meteor is a much more dangerous spell for the sake of argument)?

[Suiram]

The POLUtils stuff, while a decent indicator, is inadequate for making a final determination, since the spells aren't usable by players in the game. Take something like this, let's say due to some glitch in a future patch, the spell Bind is listed in the menu with a green dot (rather than a blue eye), and says it costs 100 MP, even though the MP cost hasn't actually changed, and it's still an ice-based enfeeble. The .dat information in POLUtils would show it as being Wind, 100 MP, etc, even though the spell doesn't work that way. Obviously such a mistake would be corrected in the next emergency maintenance, but not so with a spell that isn't being used by players ingame--there's no need to correct it. This is what I believe is going on regarding the old spell .dats and Meteor/Comet. Maybe someone who works with these things (like projectXI or w/e) can tell me if I'm misled here on the actual function of the information in the spell lists.


Anyway, maybe I should clarify the Dark Magic thing. I'm saying the following spells are considered "Dark Magic":

Bio
Drain
Aspir
Stun
Dread Spikes
Absorb-X (?)
Meteor
Comet
Maybe some others I'm forgetting, any spell that gives you a Dark Magic skillup (or would, if you could cast it).

I'm saying they're in every way dark magic. The initial damage from Bio should resist in accordance with your Dark Magic skill, for instance (for that matter, AV's meteor resist rate should depend on AV's Dark Magic skill). I'm also saying (and this is not something I discovered, it's thanks to someone in that other thread) that Fealty works on both Dark Magic spells and Enfeebling Magic spells, even though it only explicitly mentions Enfeebling. Just as Manifestation (the SCH JA) only mentions enfeebling explicitly, but also works with Dark Magic.

[Virtuous Saint]

Just tested Meteor in Apollyon NW on lightsday. No difference in damage between Korin/Anrin obis. With 150INT and no MDB besides RDM sub MDB, Meteor:1401. With 84INT and no MDB besides RDM sub, Meteor:1491. With 86INT and no MDB besides RDM sub, Meteor:1489. With 85INT and no MDB besides RDM sub, Meteor:1490. Used Flawless Ribbon for all but 2 casts.

[Ermac]

I wanted to be 100% sure on something before our Attempt, did u say u "Can Not" lock 2 hours once bracelets are out?

[Mojo]

To further elaborate on what Suiram is saying, there is a difference between type and element. Type determines the skill that the spell relies on (Stun, for instance, relies on Dark Magic Skill.) Element is the element that the spell is associated with. Gravity is wind elemental, stun is thunder elemental, etc. Meteor is 'Special', which is by no means completely understood.

Also, I'm not sure whether the statement the reason Fealty affects Meteor is because it's Dark Magic type. I don't have access to PlayOnline UTILs here, but Suiram stated that Comet is also Dark Magic type. Fealty does not affect Comet damage. I've also heard that Fealty affects Mijin Gakure damage, which is most certainly not Dark Magic type.