Absolute Virtue Information (OP Updated)

[Virtuous Saint]

You need all the bonus damage you can to win this fight in the alotted time limit, probably anyway.
I wouldn't "hold back" my nukes for a SC but rather practice to get off SC's and MB's very quickly. The recast on the Tier 4 nukes and AM is like 20 something seconds. By the time the recast is back up, the DD's should long ago had 100% TP already for the next SC MB.


Either way, try an angon order or tomahawk order with lots of war and drg ready to get invited and even cors doing random deals and wildcards to reset elemental seal and manafont so that the blms can do consistant damage.
I have like 5 COR mules with sea access that used to be owned by my roommates before they quit ff11... too bad I'm not from remora.
I would have reset your ES so many times in such few seconds.
Also got 75 COR for the AF2 enhances Random deal effect.

EDIT: You said magic burst isn't done on anything lol. King Anthro (sandworm version) anyone? lol. But yea I know what you meant, even with Magic burst during bracelets mode he still resist like 80% of the damage, I seen it multiple times in that video you posted, ouch.

Um SC/MB is irrelevant once again, you cannot fight AV with bracelets Meteor. Sandworm KA only takes damage capable of killing him from crits and MBs so obviously it is an exception.

When you make SCs not all BLMs will MB because some are so clueless they do not know when to nuke or what is even going on. Not only will some not land it, but a MB on an NM is only good for the first 1-2 people who land the MB in almost all cases I'm sure (the damage cut cap varies with NM, a lot of you reading this have no clue what I'm talking about I know...). I'll give you an example: Tinnin, we have created a SC when it used MS before, and the first person to land the MB did considerable damage obviously, but the following MBs literally did less than if they were casted normally, missing the MB. This is due to the fact that the more consecutive nukes that hit a target in a very short time frame, the more damage is cut. In other words MB can be completely counter-productive.

[Virtuous Saint]

I do agree to a extent, but a SC if it is possible without holding back would be worth it. Once AV's HP is a little lower and he starts to resist a lot more, merited Burst2 or Freeze2 on a MB would be a significant damage boost over a regular nuke. Again, i would not sacrifice damage by holding back to set up the skillchain, but i think if the skillchain is close enough that the melee can fire it off and at least let the BLM's know (vent is super easier to just saying "skillchain coming"), the BLM's should be able to get some bursts off.

You say once his HP is a little lower and he starts to resist a lot more, it isn't resisting more, it is just physically taking less magical damage. Maybe you meant this tho.

Edit: It might gain magical evasion but no one would ever know that.

[Dawin]

Have you tested runs with multiple damage sources rather than zerging or just straight nuking?

Specifically I'm interested in whether or not all damage sources are cut the same way as nukes are during bracelets mode. Soul Eater should do just as much damage at 50% as it would at 100%, right? I know AV will build resistance to it after some amount of damage is dealt, but that damage dealt will make the (as of now) hardest step go quicker.

Does AV build resistance to nukes or anything else in the same way he builds damage to SE, or are those 2 completely different forms of damage resistance?

[Hogie]

You say once his HP is a little lower and he starts to resist a lot more, it isn't resisting more, it is just physically taking less magical damage. Maybe you meant this tho.

Edit: It might gain magical evasion but no one would ever know that.

Yes sorry what i meant to say was not resisting more but rather just taking less damage. But if you had say 2 BLMs hit a Burst2 MB (Im saying Burst2 because im assuming it will be Thunders day to maximize damage, and Burst 2 with full merits gains "Each additional Merit upgrade increases Magic Burst damage by 3 and Magic Accuracy by 5" bringing you to 25macc and 15 "bonus damage")

Although i do totally agree MBing is a waste of time in 95% cases, this may be one of the times that the very small damage bonus from the burst may make that little bit of a difference. Again, I really only think a magic burst is going to be worth it if you are bursting with the correct AM2 for the SC/Day and with more then 1 merit in that AM2

[Hogie]

Have you tested runs with multiple damage sources rather than zerging or just straight nuking?

Specifically I'm interested in whether or not all damage sources are cut the same way as nukes are during bracelets mode. Soul Eater should do just as much damage at 50% as it would at 100%, right? I know AV will build resistance to it after some amount of damage is dealt, but that damage dealt will make the (as of now) hardest step go quicker.

Does AV build resistance to nukes or anything else in the same way he builds damage to SE, or are those 2 completely different forms of damage resistance?

As far as I know at least (AV may know better then me), the Souleater resistance is a one of a kind resistance. Now that you mention it, there is that Blue Mage mob in the final ToAU fight (forgot his name) that will gain a resistance to X weapon type or magic depending on what was dealt to him in the form before. Maybe when AV hits the different sections of its life, it will start to just straight take less damage then the form of weapon you were dealing damage the most before?

Example: The first 25% of its life it has mostly magic damage done to it, the next 25% it will take a lot less damage from Magic, and you will need to switch to a weapon.. say slashing. Then the next 25% because it took a lot of slashing damage, it will need to be changed to something else.




It still boggles my mind that SE says you can kill AV with a alliance lol

[Michelob]

When you make SCs not all BLMs will MB because some are so clueless they do not know when to nuke or what is even going on. Not only will some not land it, but a MB on an NM is only good for the first 1-2 people who land the MB in almost all cases I'm sure (the damage cut cap varies with NM, a lot of you reading this have no clue what I'm talking about I know...). I'll give you an example: Tinnin, we have created a SC when it used MS before, and the first person to land the MB did considerable damage obviously, but the following MBs literally did less than if they were casted normally, missing the MB. This is due to the fact that the more consecutive nukes that hit a target in a very short time frame, the more damage is cut. In other words MB can be completely counter-productive.

My point in suggesting the SC > MB with the MB matching the elemental day wasn't to add effective damage. I was just pointing out that in the developement team video, they appear to be trying to make Fragmentation (failed attempt due to AoE stun) with a bunch of BLMs casting Thunder magic on what I believe is Thundersday (last day shown before the death scene).

Since everything we know about taking AV down so far has been addressed in the video, maybe repeated use of matching SC > MB with the Vana'Diel day may have some effect in weakening AV as well.

[Hogie]

My point in suggesting the SC > MB with the MB matching the elemental day wasn't to add effective damage. I was just pointing out that in the developement team video, they appear to be trying to make Fragmentation (failed attempt due to AoE stun) with a bunch of BLMs casting Thunder magic on what I believe is Thundersday (last day shown before the death scene).

Since everything we know about taking AV down so far has been addressed in the video, maybe repeated use of matching SC > MB with the Vana'Diel day may have some effect in weakening AV as well.

If i remember what AV has said in other posts, they have tried this and it has shown to do nothing. IMO, SE is using a SC for two reasons.... 1. its 2007..... 2. Its SE.....

Seriously though, I think they may be using the SC not to weaken AV by any means because it is the final blow to kill it, but rather just to get a better chance to do that slight bit more damage

[Michelob]

If i remember what AV has said in other posts, they have tried this and it has shown to do nothing. IMO, SE is using a SC for two reasons.... 1. its 2007..... 2. Its SE.....

Seriously though, I think they may be using the SC not to weaken AV by any means because it is the final blow to kill it, but rather just to get a better chance to do that slight bit more damage

I believe Virtuous Saint said something along the lines of "We tried that, I think". If by that, he means they popped off one SC > MB matching the elemental day, thats not what I'm suggesting. To my understanding, it takes ~20ish nukes matching the elemental day to lock the remainder of AV's regen. What if it takes 10 SC > MB matching the day to weaken bracelets mode? Obviously, it's not likely, but I don't see why it isn't possible seeing as I don't see anything else that can be drawn from the video.

[Mistress Stowastiq]

Does anyone know where a clean non you tube copy is of the SE Absolute Virtue Vid is? I am looking on the site to see if its there because I never actually saw or downloaded one from SE.
Edit: Looks like Baelorn loaded up a copy that is HD on you tube back in 08, thank you.

[Suiram]

So, something's been bothering me since like page 3, and hopefully people will humor me on this. I'm referring to the guy who purportedly locked all but two 2Hs using only a rotation of Call Wyvern. Now, let's assume for a minute that he wasn't lying, or a bottom-rung grunt in his LS clueless to the broader strategy that was being utilized. Or even in that case, that he didn't completely overlook the presence of a MNK, DRK, RNG or SAM in his alliance. Assume all of this for a minute. Then there seems to be something more to locking 2Hs beyond the whole "match his 2H in the allotted time and he'll never use it again" component that everyone now knows about.

Of course, there's also the fact that they didn't lock Call Wyvern at first either, and I think that's what put a lot of people off the whole post before. But there's any number of explanations for this that don't discredit the other--more interesting--element of his post. Maybe the DRGs they brought were slow or inattentive, or lagging. Or maybe they were watching for the "uses" message (thereby using CW after the window of opportunity had passed), and later recognized that they could just watch for the dust cloud and use it then, at which point they started locking 2Hs.

The point of this, I guess, is it seems like it's something worth looking deeper into, that there may be a broader 2H-lock gimmick for which matching 2Hs is just one component. At the very least, it would make it easier to assemble an alliance to fight AV, if you didn't have to worry about having people on specific jobs rotated in at the appropriate time. What's more, it could maybe (and now I'm really speculating, I guess) have something to do with the difficulty of the fight later on. Like maybe you can make a choice to match the wrong 2H and it's a lotto for which 2H gets locked, or you can match the correct 2H for a guaranteed lock but the tradeoff is a harder fight in other respects. (I'm thinking here of fights that you can make easier in some respect, but the tradeoff is it's harder in another. Like BCs where you kill the pets instead of holding them, but it makes the mob power up.) Everyone who has gotten AV below 59% seems to have done so by locking the majority of 2Hs with matching 2Hs, anyway. I'm not saying I think this will happen, but I'm just giving an example of how it could be, that would merit investigating this other potential 2H locking procedure.

[Virtuous Saint]

Have you tested runs with multiple damage sources rather than zerging or just straight nuking?

Specifically I'm interested in whether or not all damage sources are cut the same way as nukes are during bracelets mode. Soul Eater should do just as much damage at 50% as it would at 100%, right? I know AV will build resistance to it after some amount of damage is dealt, but that damage dealt will make the (as of now) hardest step go quicker.

Does AV build resistance to nukes or anything else in the same way he builds damage to SE, or are those 2 completely different forms of damage resistance?

Watch the videos I posted and you will see exactly what we see to conclude that AV progressively takes less physical and magical damage the lower it gets, not just during the phases 79% 59%. Shield Bash damage progressively lessens and there are a lot more instances of different amounts of damage than just 2 (e.g. 79%= -so much damage taken, and 59%= -so much damage taken), so it cannot be based on phases of HP imo, but rather just based on AV getting lower in HP. The lowest accurate account of damage taken from Shield Bash against AV was around 110 damage, and the highest was around 223, so basically -50% damage roughly (obviously unknown whether it continues to drop or remains static at around -50%, but the lowest we have taken it was about 43%).

[willriker]

Proposing, yet another, test without being able to define how to test it... how you know if it worked... or even what benefit the test would have to anyone at all is lame. Elemental damage matching the day reduces av's regen. I really dont know about it having any other effect on av other than reducing its regen... SC > MB or not.

The only reason i brought up the SC > MB was as a possible way to enfeeble AV. This is only because I/we know very little about how MB'd enfeebles work. It could have an effect, and it very easily could have no affect on AV at all. At any rate, its not difficult to test this at below 100%, 79%, and again at 49% (bracelets).

When doing a test, lets try to have a definable goal. doing a SC > MB and then looking for some unknown effect to be noticed is not really the best way to go. With locking 2 hours, we observed it to see if AV would ever perorm the same 2 hour again. With locking up/stunting AVs Regen, we watched to see how much HP& he gained, and compared it to his max HP to see how much of an effect we were having on its regen.

With SC > MBed enfeebles we know that either the enfeeble lands or it doesnt. make SC and have a bunch of RDM's all MB silence or slow. I say a bunch of them because you could run into a third possibility... one where there is only a chance that silence will stick if MBed. Multiple mages MBing silence... and having actualy land will cleave off a huge chunk of AV's armor. And, many strategies will become viable from there... even if only for the length of time that silence is on it.

[Hogie]

Big post with stuff

That is actually quite interesting.... what if the more 2h's you lock, the harder meteor becomes? Maybe if by just locking some selected 2h's, meteor will not be as powerful?

We know there are some 2h's that would have to be locked for sure, but what if we keep some things up that he will continue to rotate in hopes that Meteor will be weaker....

[willriker]

Didnt SE state that they did this with an 18 man alliance? After all, that was the whole point of making the video. They wanted to show that AV can be defeated with an 18 man alliance, with medium to high grade equipment, and in the process expose some hints to how you need to approach AV.

If so, it would be quite difficult to make an 18 man alliance with 15 diferant jobs in it capable of locking every single AV 2 hour and still be functional enough to not only withstand the onslaught but also defeat AV.

You would need to duplicate some jobs in the alliance to survive. This is why i believe that AV still had call wyvern and some other two hour towards the end of the fight. The simplest answer is usualy best. And, thats the simplest answer I can give for why AV two houred just before death.

[Michelob]

That is actually quite interesting.... what is the more 2h's you lock, the harder meteor becomes? Maybe if by just locking some selected 2h's, meteor will not be as powerful?

We know there are some 2h's that would have to be locked for sure, but what if we keep some things up that he will continue to rotate in hopes that Meteor will be weaker....

I think you can look at some of the failed zerg videos that ended with meteors to the face sub 59% to get your answer to this.

[Nightfyre]

That is actually quite interesting.... what is the more 2h's you lock, the harder meteor becomes? Maybe if by just locking some selected 2h's, meteor will not be as powerful?

We know there are some 2h's that would have to be locked for sure, but what if we keep some things up that he will continue to rotate in hopes that Meteor will be weaker....

In specific reference to Meteor, people have gotten AV to bracelets prior to knowing about 2hr locking, so comparisons of damage now and then should be able to give us a decent idea of whether that's actually the case. Other, more subtle aspects of the fight may be a different story. It's worth looking into.

[Michelob]

Didnt SE state that they did this with an 18 man alliance?

No.

[Therin]

Didnt SE state that they did this with an 18 man alliance? After all, that was the whole point of making the video.

SE shows 24 people in the video plus whoever is "filming" it, so you can safely assume that they had at least that many for the fight.

[Dawin]

Watch the videos I posted and you will see exactly what we see to conclude that AV progressively takes less physical and magical damage the lower it gets, not just during the phases 79% 59%. Shield Bash damage progressively lessens and there are a lot more instances of different amounts of damage than just 2 (e.g. 79%= -so much damage taken, and 59%= -so much damage taken), so it cannot be based on phases of HP imo, but rather just based on AV getting lower in HP. The lowest accurate account of damage taken from Shield Bash against AV was around 110 damage, and the highest was around 223, so basically -50% damage roughly (obviously unknown whether it continues to drop or remains static at around -50%, but the lowest we have taken it was about 43%).

Yes, but Souleater works on different formulas entirely, and should be a good damage source that should be saved for what is currently the hardest form (since you can only use it as a damage source for a short period of time in the entire fight).

[Hogie]

I think you can look at some of the failed zerg videos that ended with meteors to the face sub 59% to get your answer to this.

That is true, but what is locking some will weaken Meteor, and locking them all will just bring it right back to normal?