Dengeki (9/25) Interview Discussion

[Eaglestrike]

Well, FFXI doesn't limit you to a singlejob, and with 3-4 75, it's pretty easy to cover most roles. Not every jobs are used equally, but aside a couple, they have their use in specific situation.

In theory, looking for job shouldn't be too bad. In reality, no one want to play BRD, no one want to do content that doesnt benefit them directly, no one want to invite a nobody that might end up winning the 0.000001% drop rate items....that's why you end up looking for specific job all the time.

And not being able to play the job you want because it's useless for something is terrible design. It'd be ok if it was just some niche small part of a game. But pretty much any BCNM, why would you bring a THF? Part of me enjoyed being that one THF that's actually useful to bring, but it's also retarded having to be the exception all the time, especially when you get to new players that don't know you are the exception and just say "no thfs lolz". This isn't speaking from my own personal experience per se (some of it is), just what I know other THF's have gone through.

Having to level another job to be able to experience a game is lame. Blizzard realized that and fixed it. SE probably doesn't know it's an issue, there's just some hope in me that they are aware of it...

[Kaylia]

Wanting to play a specific job more than another make as much sense as needing your teddy bear to sleep. No reason to get emotionally attached to your job, especially if it's mostly useless.

Aside RDM, no job would get you in every events if people are trying to build a solid party. I avoid exping like plague, but I have no issue with this particular design.

Beside, THF is far from the low end in term of use. You need 1 almost everywhere.

[Eaglestrike]

No reason to get attached to a particular style of play in a game? I enjoy my THF for what it is, how it played and what not. I enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy any other job nearly as much. Hence I wanted to keep playing what I want to play. It would be good design to allow players to play what they wanted to play and actually be able to play the game while doing so. I don't want to level BRD so I can get THF gear and do nothing on my THF.

And you "need 1 almost everywhere" for a single trait that essentially means you force someone to come as THF and allow them to do nothing for the duration of the event. I've attacked Tiamat far more as my PLD than I have as my THF when I played my THF 95% of the time because my THF wasn't useful attacking Tiamat. I've kited adds on Jormungand for 5 straight fucking hours and didn't get to attack Jorm except for ONCE.

Sorry, not seeing how that's fun or good design.

[Xpression]

Anyone else notice that he says there will be no auto attacking?

He said think of it as having a longer list of weaponskills at your disposal. This sounds strange to me, although I suppose that is a little bit like how ranger works in XI, although it's not weaponskills it's just normal ranged attack.

I'm not complaining, just curious, I loved exping ranger every step of the way. At the same time, it sounds like it could make mele fighting too easy to deal heavy damage, perhaps you wont want to go all out and pull hate or something.

[Kaylia]

No reason to get attached to a particular style of play in a game? I enjoy my THF for what it is, how it played and what not. I enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy any other job nearly as much. Hence I wanted to keep playing what I want to play. It would be good design to allow players to play what they wanted to play and actually be able to play the game while doing so. I don't want to level BRD so I can get THF gear and do nothing on my THF.

And you "need 1 almost everywhere" for a single trait that essentially means you force someone to come as THF and allow them to do nothing for the duration of the event. I've attacked Tiamat far more as my PLD than I have as my THF when I played my THF 95% of the time because my THF wasn't useful attacking Tiamat. I've kited adds on Jormungand for 5 straight fucking hours and didn't get to attack Jorm except for ONCE.

Sorry, not seeing how that's fun or good design.

A good thief can deal reasonable melee damage. They have feint, which is essential in any melee heavy event. Flee make them pretty useful when there is leg work to do. Accomplice is a life saver ability when used properly. They did suck for a while, but they are definitively not a useless job, and are solid WITHOUT treasure hunter. Like I said 3 posts ago, taking TH out of the game would be one of the first thing I do if I could. It's as bad as bard issue.

As for playing what you want to play...I made multiple rant about this on the main board, and it's probably my biggest pet peeves in game. Many player are going on a crusade to prove that their job are the best (when it's not), and get obcessed in the process. You say you don't like other jobs, but have you seriously tried to perform well using a rdm, a blm, a smn, or even pup? Jobs are fun to play when they get technical (unless what you like is not play the game), but they rarely do in xp party.

Really, the difference between SA, Sekkanoki, or Jump is in your head. Ask yourself why "thief is much more fun", and try to justify it reasonably. You don't have to post your answer, but there is a good chance your attachment to the job is emotional. Some job are less involving, and could be considered more boring, but out of the 20 there is, I'm sure there is more than 1 that is enjoyable.

Hell, I would be willing to be that once you try BLM in dyna, you will never want to go back to melee after.

[Kaylia]

Anyone else notice that he says there will be no auto attacking?

He said think of it as having a longer list of weaponskills at your disposal. This sounds strange to me, although I suppose that is a little bit like how ranger works in XI, although it's not weaponskills it's just normal ranged attack.

I'm not complaining, just curious, I loved exping ranger every step of the way. At the same time, it sounds like it could make mele fighting too easy to deal heavy damage, perhaps you wont want to go all out and pull hate or something.

Half of the job are not "auto attacking" in FFXI. It's not very hard to imagine something similar for mage, or range like you mentioned.

For melee, I think it means they will have to follow an ability rotation similar any WoW clone. Press one macro every few seconds to use your ability, then move to another while the cooldown refresh. Melee attacks are optional, unless you enjoy seeing your character swings at the mobs (I do, but I can live without).

I personally don't think it matter. FFXI gave you 20seconds to alt tab between WS, but that's about it. The new system should be slightly more involving, but the impact are minimal.

[Xpression]

Yes, mages play much differently than mele that is for sure. The idea that it will be moving towards a more WoW-like setup totally freaks me out. O.o

I guess I'm kind of attached to the way mele's work in XI in that the main focus is doing as much damage as possible without pulling hate, while keep everyone lined up for SAs and TAs. I think after all these years of XI im kind of attached in general.

I'm expecting XIV to be amazing partially because it is a square enix mmo, but mostly because the same team is working on it. No game has ever held my attention like XI, and I think many people feel the same way. It will be interesting to see how many hardcore XI players leave for XIV and how many stick with the world they have spent so much time in.

[Eaglestrike]

A good thief can deal reasonable melee damage. They have feint, which is essential in any melee heavy event. Flee make them pretty useful when there is leg work to do. Accomplice is a life saver ability when used properly. They did suck for a while, but they are definitively not a useless job, and are solid WITHOUT treasure hunter. Like I said 3 posts ago, taking TH out of the game would be one of the first thing I do if I could. It's as bad as bard issue.

As for playing what you want to play...I made multiple rant about this on the main board, and it's probably my biggest pet peeves in game. Many player are going on a crusade to prove that their job are the best (when it's not), and get obcessed in the process. You say you don't like other jobs, but have you seriously tried to perform well using a rdm, a blm, a smn, or even pup? Jobs are fun to play when they get technical (unless what you like is not play the game), but they rarely do in xp party.

Really, the difference between SA, Sekkanoki, or Jump is in your head. Ask yourself why "thief is much more fun", and try to justify it reasonably. You don't have to post your answer, but there is a good chance your attachment to the job is emotional. Some job are less involving, and could be considered more boring, but out of the 20 there is, I'm sure there is more than 1 that is enjoyable.

Hell, I would be willing to be that once you try BLM in dyna, you will never want to go back to melee after.

I like THF because that's just what I play in RPG games. I'm almost always the quick/evasive character and enjoy them most. PLD is sort of my 2nd love, the two jobs/classes represent my personality in many ways and so I enjoy that aspect to them.

I've played BLM and RDM at 75 before on friends accounts, they're ok, but not my thing at all. Didn't enjoy them. BLM was alright (did pop NM's for a day) but didn't fall in love with it or anything. And I hated leveling BLM and couldn't even make it to 37 like I did almost every job.

[Kenai]

A good thief can deal reasonable melee damage. They have feint, which is essential in any melee heavy event. Flee make them pretty useful when there is leg work to do. Accomplice is a life saver ability when used properly. They did suck for a while, but they are definitively not a useless job, and are solid WITHOUT treasure hunter. Like I said 3 posts ago, taking TH out of the game would be one of the first thing I do if I could. It's as bad as bard issue.

As for playing what you want to play...I made multiple rant about this on the main board, and it's probably my biggest pet peeves in game. Many player are going on a crusade to prove that their job are the best (when it's not), and get obcessed in the process. You say you don't like other jobs, but have you seriously tried to perform well using a rdm, a blm, a smn, or even pup? Jobs are fun to play when they get technical (unless what you like is not play the game), but they rarely do in xp party.

Really, the difference between SA, Sekkanoki, or Jump is in your head. Ask yourself why "thief is much more fun", and try to justify it reasonably. You don't have to post your answer, but there is a good chance your attachment to the job is emotional. Some job are less involving, and could be considered more boring, but out of the 20 there is, I'm sure there is more than 1 that is enjoyable.

Hell, I would be willing to be that once you try BLM in dyna, you will never want to go back to melee after.

I understand, and to a certain extent I agree, but there are different "playstyles" in the different jobs (less in FFXI than some other MMOs, but they are still there), and people can become attached to how they play. I think there is a difference between how people play a class effectively (personal playstyle) and how different classes play (class playstyle). It's the same when people prefer to nuke in the back instead of swing in the front. It's all numbers and a dead monster in the end, but I'm sure people have fun doing it in different ways.

I also beg to ask why SE bothered to make said job if I wasn't going to be able to do anything with it when it's leveled. I mean, how am I supposed to know at level 20 that the job I'm leveling is going to be useless at 75, especially a new job that hasn't been fully updated with merit abilities and such? Why was it so naive to think they would eventually fix the jobs to be acceptable? I mean, as useless as my PUP was at 75, I curbstomped everything in Y. Jungle in the late 20s, outdamaging every person on every class that would dare to parse me by a WIDE margin (except other PUPs). Several PUPs will give you the same story of amazing lowbie numbers. Yet I'm sure lolPUP is still a meme with reference to endgame content, and after everything I attempted to do with the job I agree with it on a lot of accounts. Why was that ok with SE? Not to mention that there have been several times the status quo has been reset. 2handupdate, remember?

That's why I'm so curious with 14 right now. I really want to see what they learned from 11 with regards to class balancing and player/GM interaction. I agree with Kaylia when I say this is more of an SE problem than a player problem, even though they are both responsible. You can't really blame a player for not wanting to invite a job when SE doesn't give them much of a reason to. Hell, SE often gives the player reasons NOT to invite a non-cookie cutter job. It's a shame.

[Kaylia]

Yes, mages play much differently than mele that is for sure. The idea that it will be moving towards a more WoW-like setup totally freaks me out. O.o

I guess I'm kind of attached to the way mele's work in XI in that the main focus is doing as much damage as possible without pulling hate, while keep everyone lined up for SAs and TAs. I think after all these years of XI im kind of attached in general.

I'm expecting XIV to be amazing partially because it is a square enix mmo, but mostly because the same team is working on it. No game has ever held my attention like XI, and I think many people feel the same way. It will be interesting to see how many hardcore XI players leave for XIV and how many stick with the world they have spent so much time in.

That's exactly how WoW works. Well, there is minor difference, but, but aggro is essentialy the same as FFXI in the sense that dealing too much damage is going to get you killed if you're a dd. And really, I can't remember last time I held back in FFXI. Whenever enmity is reaching dangerous level, I'm subbing nin, and pulling hate just make me feel better inside.

The biggest difference between WoW and FFXI is the targetting system (arguable, but I h prefer the one in FFXI), and the pace at which thing happen (ie: tank lose 70% of their hp every 3sec in WoW, while you're forced to navigate around gimmick similar to diablos' falling floor).

About melee, it was just a guess, but one of the biggest complaint from players was that "you do nothing but press a macro once every 30sec". The only solution is to make player more involved, and assuming they make you spam more than a single move (I hope so), it's going to end with a skill rotation. I wouldn't be worried about it for now, because we can't say anything until we see the list of skills we have access to. Gives melee a stun, a few debuff and a few more pure dd skill, and you will have an interesting job. Sure, spamming ctrl1, ctrl2, ctrl3 over and over sound boring, but the fun start when you have to take other parameter into account.

I've played BLM and RDM at 75 before on friends accounts, they're ok, but not my thing at all. Didn't enjoy them. BLM was alright (did pop NM's for a day) but didn't fall in love with it or anything. And I hated leveling BLM and couldn't even make it to 37 like I did almost every job.

I drank wine the other day, and hated it. Wine definitively suck, and I can't possibly like it.

I dont think trying BLM once, in that kind of context is going to show you what it can do, or make you enjoy it. The default role for every job is retarded, and generally boring. Trying to do it well, and improving every aspect of the gameplay is where the fun start. On BLM, it's generally when you realize how much you can change to the outcome of a fight. Sleepga, stun, well placed aga, triggering dyna's mnk 2h before the alliance get to it, holding NM alone on blm/nin after someone else screwed up...etc Your job is more than standing still and nuking your target.
In xp party, it's extremely boring, because the typical party is not very involving. Only enjoyable moment is when you get many adds somehow, and get to save the day.

I like THF because that's just what I play in RPG games. I'm almost always the quick/evasive character and enjoy them most. PLD is sort of my 2nd love, the two jobs/classes represent my personality in many ways and so I enjoy that aspect to them.

Well, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier, emotion make you biased before you even start. I personally think being open minded about gameplay feature increase the chance that I enjoy the game.

[Chupunpupun]

That's exactly how WoW works. Well, there is minor difference, but, but aggro is essentialy the same as FFXI in the sense that dealing too much damage is going to get you killed if you're a dd. And really, I can't remember last time I held back in FFXI. Whenever enmity is reaching dangerous level, I'm subbing nin, and pulling hate just make me feel better inside.

The biggest difference between WoW and FFXI is the targetting system (arguable, but I h prefer the one in FFXI), and the pace at which thing happen (ie: tank lose 70% of their hp every 3sec in WoW, while you're forced to navigate around gimmick similar to diablos' falling floor).

About melee, it was just a guess, but one of the biggest complaint from players was that "you do nothing but press a macro once every 30sec". The only solution is to make player more involved, and assuming they make you spam more than a single move (I hope so), it's going to end with a skill rotation. I wouldn't be worried about it for now, because we can't say anything until we see the list of skills we have access to. Gives melee a stun, a few debuff and a few more pure dd skill, and you will have an interesting job. Sure, spamming ctrl1, ctrl2, ctrl3 over and over sound boring, but the fun start when you have to take other parameter into account.

My biggest complaint about wow is the fact that you can pass thru mobs, NPCs, PCs like they aren't even there. In raids if there is a big pull, all the mobs and PCs just stack on top of each other making a big pile of cluster fuck, they don't even make the effort to de-stack themselves at least fafnir and the spider inside it TRIES to de-stack(lol). At that point, it's not even a visual game anymore, just hit the keys and wait for cooldown.

It gets worst in PVP where people just run thru frantically trying to score a hit in your back and you gotta counter that by running frantically thru them and then it turns into a well WOW...

I just hope FF14 makes an effort to make you believe that the mob actually takes up space.

[Kaylia]

I understand, and to a certain extent I agree, but there are different "playstyles" in the different jobs (less in FFXI than some other MMOs, but they are still there), and people can become attached to how they play. I think there is a difference between how people play a class effectively (personal playstyle) and how different classes play (class playstyle). It's the same when people prefer to nuke in the back instead of swing in the front. It's all numbers and a dead monster in the end, but I'm sure people have fun doing it in different ways.

I also beg to ask why SE bothered to make said job if I wasn't going to be able to do anything with it when it's leveled. I mean, how am I supposed to know at level 20 that the job I'm leveling is going to be useless at 75, especially a new job that hasn't been fully updated with merit abilities and such? Why was it so naive to think they would eventually fix the jobs to be acceptable? I mean, as useless as my PUP was at 75, I curbstomped everything in Y. Jungle in the late 20s, outdamaging every person on every class that would dare to parse me by a WIDE margin (except other PUPs). Several PUPs will give you the same story of amazing lowbie numbers. Yet I'm sure lolPUP is still a meme with reference to endgame content, and after everything I attempted to do with the job I agree with it on a lot of accounts. Why was that ok with SE? Not to mention that there have been several times the status quo has been reset. 2handupdate, remember?

That's why I'm so curious with 14 right now. I really want to see what they learned from 11 with regards to class balancing and player/GM interaction. I agree with Kaylia when I say this is more of an SE problem than a player problem, even though they are both responsible. You can't really blame a player for not wanting to invite a job when SE doesn't give them much of a reason to. Hell, SE often gives the player reasons NOT to invite a non-cookie cutter job. It's a shame.

There is different style obviously, but essentially, you're just another piece of a big killing machine, and your job could be replaced with a 3 line bot 99% of the time. I could understand that someone slightly prefer a job over another, but to point of not being able to enjoy other job? They are doing something wrong somewhere imo. I mean, I do prefer tanking on War than Sam, because I feel more secure for many reasons, but it's not a love/hate relationship.

<harsh critic directed at melee only player>
I'm willing to argue that being on the back line in FFXI give you a LOT more power to control the outcome of a fight than being a melee. Players who vouch for "melee" gamestyle before anything else always came out as lazy fuck who just want to leech. They can't accept their responsability in a fight, and aren't working for the team, they are just there for themselves.

I'm not going to deny they are enjoying melee more, but it's not because of the gameplay mechanics, it's because are selfish.

I know some people will disagree, but shit, after playing FFXI for 7 years, I would say that more than half of the linkshell problems were started with "melee only" players. They are the worst kind to have around.
</critic>

Now, I'm sure there is an exception, however, the trend i noticed seemed very real, and I'm certain it's more than a statistical fluke.

[Kaylia]

My biggest complaint about wow is the fact that you can pass thru mobs, NPCs, PCs like they aren't even there. In raids if there is a big pull, all the mobs and PC just stack on top of each other making a big pile of cluster fuck, they don't even try to de-stack themselves at least fafnir and the spider inside it TRIES to de-stack(lol). At that point, it's not even a visual game anymore, just hit the keys and wait for cooldown.

It gets worst in PVP where people just run thru frantically trying to score a hit in your back and you gotta counter that by running frantically thru them and then it turns into a well WOW..

Yes, this.

FFXI is a lot more fun to look at with its horizontal camera, engaged/disengaged state and camera lock. Althought, the action of "engaging" the monster is fucking retarded and should be done smoothly, it's a lot more satisfying.

WoW boss are a lot of fun thought, despite the cluster fuck on your screen. I love the gimmick..make every fight a lot more involving for everyone.


I personally would love to see an hybrid between both. WoW boss fight in FFXI environment (something like Heigan or Thadius or EoE). It's really a shame there won't be jumping (platforming) element in FFXI, because it's remove a huge dynamics when you're fighting. I'm not expecting any original fight from SE...it's going to be the same AI copy pasted 3000 times, like FFXI.

I mentioned this earlier, but when they introduced diablos, I thought we would see more gimmick like this during battle. Sadly, there isnt many interesting twist to normal fight (I love Long armed chariot, vampyr and a few mobs, but in overall, its always straigthforward battle)

[Eaglestrike]

My biggest complaint about wow is the fact that you can pass thru mobs, NPCs, PCs like they aren't even there. In raids if there is a big pull, all the mobs and PCs just stack on top of each other making a big pile of cluster fuck, they don't even make the effort to de-stack themselves at least fafnir and the spider inside it TRIES to de-stack(lol). At that point, it's not even a visual game anymore, just hit the keys and wait for cooldown.

It gets worst in PVP where people just run thru frantically trying to score a hit in your back and you gotta counter that by running frantically thru them and then it turns into a well WOW...

I just hope FF14 makes an effort to make you believe that the mob actually takes up space.

You've obviously never tanked in WoW. Those bitches like to move and do retarded pathing like mobs in FFXI too! Though it is slightly more forgiving than FFXI, maybe?

I liked THF because casters weren't my thing in FFXI and all the other melee are boring standing there doing jackshit because you have your 3min meditate cooldown and a ws every 20s and that's all you do. A THF has feint, SA, TA, WS's, utsusemi's (I took hate often) collaboration/accomplice, ass charge, steal and I always had to position myself. It was a highly active job unlike most others seemed to be.

Oddly enough in WoW I much prefer casters over melee for the most part, part of it might be the complaint about PvP just being running through others and such the whole time. But I level my shaman as elemental, my druid as resto, etc. In fact I think another part of it is the fact that mobs move around a fair amount and my rogue (who was my 2nd 70) would always get a "target out of range" all the damn time because of all the movement necessary. Casters can just park and work on the rotation and avoiding shit. A melee has to avoid shit, do their rotation and make sure they're still in the mobs hitbox.

And I suppose the tl:dr would be that WoW melee is too active for my tastes and FFXI melee is too inactive (save THF which is just right) lol.

[Kaylia]

And I suppose the tl:dr would be that WoW melee is too active for my tastes and FFXI melee is too inactive (save THF which is just right) lol.

Sam get to press more macro than thief if that's your concern. In fact, any job that blink tank probably press more macro than thief, and are more active.

[Eaglestrike]

Sam get to press more macro than thief if that's your concern. In fact, any job that blink tank probably press more macro than thief, and are more active.

Totally don't see how. Aside from constant Seigan/Hasso (which heavily depends on the group and your playstyle) switching I don't see how sam's do more either.

[Kaylia]

Totally don't see how. Aside from constant Seigan/Hasso (which heavily depends on the group and your playstyle) switching I don't see how sam's do more either.

If we roughly count the number of trigger per minute in the ideal situation

With Seigan on
Third eye = 2
Meditate = 0.4
Seigan = 0.2
Sekanoki = 0.2
WS = 3 per minutes?
Total = ~6 action per minutes

Thief
SA/TA = 2
Feint = 0.5
WS = 2 per minutes
Total = 4.5 per minutes

If you include sub, they will always be in favor of samurai, since thief probably won't use utsusemi as much. Both job involve positioning with overwhelm for samurai. Samurai got the self skillchain aspect they can try occasionally to spice thing up (once every 1min40 on average)

If you do the count for dd sam/war (no switching between both), thief might get a slight advantage, but it's a marginal lead. Sam can probably WS more than 3:2 too, but I never compared, and I'm definitively not going the tp store maths tonight.


Drg (jump + sam sub), drk (spell + sam sub), rng (lot of spam), you would notice that most job have about the same amount of action. War and mnk are probably one of the most lazy in term of action/minutes, but you get to tank most of the time, which make up for it.

[Eaglestrike]

Sam's get third eyes and THF's don't get utsusemi? Man, I must have just imagined going through stacks of shihei when I merited on my THF. That or you've never actually seen a good THF and all the aggro they produce. Especially one that melee's in enmity+7. And I usually ws's more than twice a minute. I stacked SA or TA only with MS and I still DE'd all the time in merits.

[Kaylia]

Sam's get third eyes and THF's don't get utsusemi? Man, I must have just imagined going through stacks of shihei when I merited on my THF. That or you've never actually seen a good THF and all the aggro they produce. Especially one that melee's in enmity+7. And I usually ws's more than twice a minute. I stacked SA or TA only with MS and I still DE'd all the time in merits.

And you never played against good melee? I can use that argument too

I don't think the people you're talking about had a relic like your thief. I would like to count the number of shadow wasted by amano sam/nin in salvage versus your thief/nin. Or the amount of time you use utsusemi when there is sam/war in your collibri party. Someone is going to open every fight with provoke most likely, and unless you have tp (sam is more likely to have 100), you won't pull hate before it dies.

If you WS more than twice a minute with haste and everything, the samurai will WS more than 3 times a minutes.


Of course, I gave a situation favorable to the samurai, but even if you give everything to the thief, you will never get a situation where it's significant. It's kinda ridiculous to say other melee are "passive" compared to thief.

[Chupunpupun]

I was a LV80 BE Retardin , so yeah, I didn't do much tanking but I still stand by my cluster fuck complaint.

Regarding the gimmick fights: i think SE does try to make fights gimmicky but the game has gotten to the point where TP/Mana/etc burn > fighting it the way dev intended it to be fought. But Ixion is a pretty gimmicky fight, requiring alot of movement and awareness of the mob.