COR/WHM

[Tsuko_Asura]

I really hope you don't think that's new or exciting to me.. lol

Play nice

[Thorny]

Play nice

but the mp cors make me saddddddddddd ;-;

[Daemonic]

I really hope you don't think that's new or exciting to me.. lol

no i was just tryin to backup your point was all.

[Spider-Dan]

Have yet to try /dnc thou, there is a cor in my ls with dnc high enough (myn is level 10 at the moment i'll get to it soon) and asked him to try in a merit party but insists it is a horrible sub.

<5% of the COR population (which is f*cking tiny to begin with) understands how to use /DNC. I am literally the only COR I have ever seen sub DNC on my server.

Found this screenshot of /war in a merit party to for the above quote and konoko. (with angon)

That's 50 more damage than I did as /DNC. Yay Berserk...?

[Thorny]

That's 50 more damage than I did as /DNC. Yay Berserk...?

Judging from your other posts you know full well what berserk does and how much damage it adds. Taking a cheap shot like that is pretty pointless, having enough other buffers to cap pdif without berserk is NOT the norm(though I love it as well).

[Spider-Dan]

I'm aware of what berserk does, yes. I'm just getting tired of a plurality of CORs choosing /WAR as the default because of Big Number Syndrome. And no, I'm not saying that the only thing Berserk does is make pretty screenshots, but the point is, my numbers are still pretty damned good even without 'zerk.

COR/DNC is an incredibly powerful merit combo, giving you 90-95% of the damage potential of COR/RNG or COR/WAR, and 90-95% of the healing/support of a backline COR/WHM... but you can switch at will, on the fly.

[Carrilei]

Just to reinforce my /Whm without strait MP gear point, I just had a prime example of where MP gear would supposedly be most useful, but it was perfectly fine without. A fully strengthened LBC (because the THF puller on gears messed up), with 6 people. RDM, and COR+BRD for curing. I used no specific gear for MP, yet I was pretty much spamming Cure III, as well as using Paralyna/Erase after Discharge/Inertia Stream obviously. Aand.. Like I said, it went fine. What matters most is the rate of MP regeneration, not max MP. But, to those who feel differently, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edit - In fact at one point my emnity became an issue (no, not directly after a Homing Missile), so.. I had really reached the saturation point for how much I was casting. Higher max MP isn't about to help in that situation, but better QD damage may. And no, you don't QD if you think it's going to pull hate, fortunately with the timers you can generally wait for an opportune time (you do want to enhance Slow/Para) without sitting on it too much.

[Shinryuu]

In my merit parties where I fulltime hate using hasso and merited berserk (arguably the most damage taken, I'd reckon counterstance takes less overall) the COR doesn't need to /DNC (maybe because I love DNC in my party but without one it's still fine). I'd make COR go /DNC in Salvage, Limbus, MJSP merits... it's definitely an awesome sub.

For COR/DNC, do you use Kris or Joy?

[Starr]

Look at spiderdan's parse, average melee hit is 14 so must be Kris

[Gredival]

Yes because COR's melee damage is more important than your LS strategy.

You might as well tell the RDM to engage too.

But the lack of support for the BLM/meeles will totally be compensated by the RDM's dmg man!!!! You're just close minded and can't expand your horizons about DD!

Just to reinforce my /Whm without strait MP gear point, I just had a prime example of where MP gear would supposedly be most useful, but it was perfectly fine without. A fully strengthened LBC (because the THF puller on gears messed up), with 6 people. RDM, and COR+BRD for curing. I used no specific gear for MP, yet I was pretty much spamming Cure III, as well as using Paralyna/Erase after Discharge/Inertia Stream obviously. Aand.. Like I said, it went fine. What matters most is the rate of MP regeneration, not max MP. But, to those who feel differently, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edit - In fact at one point my emnity became an issue (no, not directly after a Homing Missile), so.. I had really reached the saturation point for how much I was casting. Higher max MP isn't about to help in that situation, but better QD damage may. And no, you don't QD if you think it's going to pull hate, fortunately with the timers you can generally wait for an opportune time (you do want to enhance Slow/Para) without sitting on it too much.

I'm sure Sin would agree that max MP matters a whole lot less if he was getting 15/16~ MP/tick... But low manning Salvage with three forms of refresh is not an analogous situation to HNMs.

On HNM where you do not have a RDM there to refresh you and be the party's main heal, and the Bard's ballads are probably doing 3/tick instead of 7/tick, your MP pool will be a factor.

This isn't about whether CORs can do dmg, or should be using QD; it's about maximizing damage. Why do CORs not sub /WAR at Fafnir? Inefficiency. However much it will help you DD, it will impair your ability to support and thereby injure the output from the main DD's by a larger margin than your damage will compensate. Comparatively by "gimping" your damage and going /WHM you can maximize support to the heavy DDs who can compensate for the damage lost.

The logic of MP gear is the same. You sacrifice some DD potential for some initial extra base MP on the premise that in some way that MP will benefit the alliance more than the 500> total damage or so you lose.

Even if it doesn't help a lot, let's consider your logic here. You don't want to optimize your /WHM with MP gear because its unnecessary. By the same token, optimizing your DD is unnecessary as well. While all of you may care about your dmg, the rest of us in alliance quite frankly couldn't give a shit if you do 1% of the parse or 1.5% of the parse. You're never gonna match a real DD on HNMs. We invite you for buffs. The pew pew is gravy.

If you're not willing to support optimally, why do you go the extra mile to DD optimally? The only explanation is that you're being selfish in the way you play; you're willing to go the extra mile to stab something in a marginally more efficient way but not go the extra mile to cure real DD's in a marginally more efficient way

And that's just a piss poor mentality for a support job.

[Shinryuu]

Ah, good call. Is the jury out yet on Kris vs. Joy when not subbing DNC? Kris is more TP gain, but...

[Andradi]

... doesn't do any damage during TP phase.

I'd be interested to see the maths but I think joyeuse would be better overall.

Wouldn't be surprised if I was very, very wrong, however.

[Shinryuu]

Vain attempt to math it out incoming. Not taking into account skill difference. Joyeuse has an expected amount of swings of 1.45, and Kris is 1.9? Assume no Store TP (Toreador x2 but no Skadi pants/Campaign x2, for instance, can adjust this later). I will calculate increases in total damage coming from a hypothetical "Occasionally hits twice" weapon with the base damage of Kris and Joyeuse's delay.

Joyeuse: needs 17 swings to TP, divide by 1.45, 11.72 rounds on average. Times delay is 2626 delay to TP.
Kris: Needs 20 swings for TP, divide by 1.9, 10.5 rounds on average. Times delay is 2021 delay.

WS frequency from Joy to Kris goes up by roughly 30%. Multiply this by the unknown (WS/TP ratio) using a hypothetical weapon ('Joyeuse' w/ Kris's base damage) to see total Kris increase. Say it's 50/50 then the total increase is 15%, obviously. It'll be more, Slug is hardcore etc.

Kris's increase in melee damage from the hypothetical: 16% delay, 31% more swings.

Joyeuse increase in melee damage: DMG difference (assuming no fSTR bonus): 437.5% more damage during the TP phase.

Who can provide me with a nice hypothetical WS/TP ratio?

[Spider-Dan]

Is the jury out yet on Kris vs. Joy when not subbing DNC? Kris is more TP gain, but...

The math has been done before (I don't have a link). It came down to the amount of STP on the COR's gear; the more you have, (e.g. rajas, Skadi pants, Cobra body, etc.), the more the comparison swings toward M.Kris. But regardless of how much you have, the comparison is extremely close either way.

Effectively, they are "equal" in damage output, which means that (for /DNC) Kris is the clear winner (as /DNC can do more with TP than just damage).

Who can provide me with a nice hypothetical WS/TP ratio?

My ratio (from the parse I linked earlier) is skewed because I'm using a lot of TP on non-WS actions, but the other COR/RNG's ratio should be usable (if not necessarily optimal). I believe he was using Joyeuse.

[konoko]

after a few days with a max mp setup (not that much, i sit on like 460 mp at the start of HNM fighting) the max mp really helps me support the DD's, once im out of mp (mostly waiting on refresh to fill me up) i can switch to QD gear fire 2 times, switch back to mp gear, start resting, before 2QD is ready again faf is extremely likely to wings again, and i imediatly use Curaga II, then Blindna anyone i can, whatever amount of Cure III's i can throw out, and once im out of mp again (or the alliance is in good hp again) i QD 2 more times, and go back to resting

[Carrilei]

I don't know where you're pulling 1% from, but I can assure you on average that figure is woefully low. I realize from your quote, that you're one of those people who thinks if the COR can't match a DD, there's no point to improving their damage.. I don't feel like wasting my time debating someone with such an insular mindset.

[Gredival]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1253396080

[Meat]

I don't know where you're pulling 1% from, but I can assure you on average that figure is woefully low. I realize from your quote, that you're one of those people who thinks if the COR can't match a DD, there's no point to improving their damage.. I don't feel like wasting my time debating someone with such an insular mindset.

But Cor can match the support of a bard, with the right sub, is that not worth improving on?

[Carrilei]

But Cor can match the support of a bard, with the right sub, is that not worth improving on?

If you already have the MP to cast everything you want to, higher max MP isn't fucking doing that. Why not improve your damage, which is actually helpful as it gives no TP..? A recent poster noted that at 460 MP they were "really able to help support the DD's." Do you really think that would change noticably with 300? It doesn't, if you don't believe me, why don't you try it? I've tried an MP build before, and I'm willing to try it again if I think it may be worth it.

-And I'll make an edit to address this one more time, in reference to my Salvage e.g. There, of course, the large Refresh/tick was the reason I was able to spam Cure III so much. As Gredival even admitted, you don't need MP gear in that situation. However, if you need to spam Cure III at that high a rate when you don't have much Refresh, guess what will occur? Whether you have 300 MP, or 400, or 500, or 600, you will run out of MP. Fast.

[Sinharvest]

I don't know where you're pulling 1% from, but I can assure you on average that figure is woefully low. I realize from your quote, that you're one of those people who thinks if the COR can't match a DD, there's no point to improving their damage.. I don't feel like wasting my time debating with such an insular mindset.

I think you misunderstood Gredival's entire post...

His 1% and 1.5% numbers werent meant to be taken litterally. The point he's trying to make is no matter how much damage you do on COR (physical or QD) against something like an HNM you are more than likely going to be pretty low on the total damage dealt list. You could use any number you'd like to substitute with but the fact of the matter is, your SAMs, DRKs, WARs, RNGs, BLMs, etc should all be doing considerably more damage than you. Since COR isnt a heavy DD on things like HNM and most end game events, this is where you need to use your best judgment as to which role you play in the alliance. Your damage is expendable when there is something else you can do that would increase the total damage output by the heavier DDs if they can compensate and exceed past the total damage you would have done personally. It's a pretty broad statement but this is subjective to your LS and the events you do.

Also, why would you improve your damage if your damage isnt what's needed at the time? That's another point he's trying to make. If full support/curing was the best choice for that event, what good would improving your damage do for everyone? I would think if you're trying to optimize your performance in every possible role you could find yourself in with your LS, you'd be improving everything on a much broader scale. Not just a focus on improving damage.

As far as his "insular mindset", he simply wants what is best for the alliance. Sounds to me like he doesnt care what combo, role, or gear set is used as long as it's the best fit for the event. Anyone who isnt a COR obviously wont be as passionate about the job as someone who has a COR. Which means you as the COR are probably the only person who cares about how well you can DD in the grand scheme of things. However, since COR is a support job which offers I dunno, support, people are going to notice and care about what you're doing to help the alliance and that encompasses everything from DD to curing.

If you already have the MP to cast everything you want to, higher max MP isn't fucking doing that. Why not improve your damage, which is actually helpful as it gives no TP..? A recent poster noted that at 460 MP they were "really able to help support the DD's." Do you really think that would change noticably with 300? It doesn't, if you don't believe me, why don't you try it? I've tried an MP build before, and I'm willing to try it again if I think it may be worth it.

Yes, I feel that change in mp would be very noticeable if your rate of regenerating mp isnt able to keep up with how frequently you're casting spells.