COR/WHM

[Carrilei]

Have you seen what a decked out COR has parsed in comparisons to BLM on say, Tia? Just wondering. Again, the thing that makes it great is it's impactful damage that is feeding -zero- TP.

[cdgreg]

Yes, I feel that change in mp would be very noticeable if your rate of regenerating mp isnt able to keep up with how frequently you're casting spells.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. But if you can't regenerate MPs quickly enough to keep up with casting spells then why does it matter if you have a max mp bar of 300 or 1000?

[Thorny]

Use spellcast, prioritize your pieces of gear and add locks. Automatically swap in as much QD gear as you can without losing mp, and go back to max mp for idle. Best of both worlds, as if you're hovering at full mp enough to be concerned about QD damage then you really shouldn't care about your mp in that situation anyway.

[Meat]

Have you seen what a decked out COR has parsed in comparisons to BLM on say, Tia? Just wondering. Again, the thing that makes it great is it's impactful damage that is feeding -zero- TP.

With a skillchain in the mix and yes, I know what a decked out cor can do I am one(novio and all) and I cannot compare to 1100 magic bursts every 30seconds. btw way to pick the ONLY hnm in the came where cor damage can even be considered viable

[Carrilei]

With a skillchain in the mix and yes, I know what a decked out cor can do I am one(novio and all) and I cannot compare to 1100 magic bursts every 30seconds. btw way to pick the ONLY hnm in the came where cor damage can even be considered viable

So you've never done Bahav2?

[Thorny]

So you've never done Bahav2?

half dozen decent drks = kdone
nobody gives a fuck what your cor does for damage, grats on cutting 2 seconds off killtime? If you're at bv2 on cor instead of brd you damn well better be a wild card whore for the drks

[Carrilei]

Not everyone zergs that, but whatever.

[Thorny]

Not everyone zergs that, but whatever.

i think i've said what i can

[Gredival]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. But if you can't regenerate MPs quickly enough to keep up with casting spells then why does it matter if you have a max mp bar of 300 or 1000?

Think about (bad) Red Mage in (bad) merit parties. RDMs with like 500-600 MP pools, in parties with 1BRD max. These Red Mages end up causing the party to rest because they will burn their MP very fast and the refresh in this setup isn't high enough to sustain their MP.

Imagine how slower the party would be without convert which could be considered a free +500 MP?

The key point here is efficiency. You should use MP gear so long as the heavy DD's can do better damage with better support you provide with that extra MP than the extra damage you yourself will deal by not using MP gear. Even if you may not be able to get enough MP to get a pool so large it can completely sustain you through the entire fight, there is still lot you can do with 500MP. And comparatively that 500 MP will help the alliance more; in any HNM fight the gradient between gimp QDs and optimized QDs will never ever compensate for failing to support your BLMs.

My point was that even if the MP gear doesn't help a lot more, so long as it is better (and everyone with significant HNM experience here seems to agree it is without a doubt better) the refusal to get MP gear indicates pure selfishness not being willing to play optimally for the good of the alliance. When the best way to support your party is to get MP and cure, then as a support job you get your ass some MP gear and you cure. If you're not willing to do your job then you should gtfo.

And not to mention having a higher base MP pool naturally allows refresh to work better. Let's take the extremely unrealistic Salvage example, just to prove a point.

I'm a COR getting extreme amounts of Refresh (12+/tick) but with only 300 MP. Even if my average MP consumption per tick is under 12, I can still feasibly run out of MP so long as my MP consumption for any particular spurt of time far exceeds 12/tick. 300 MP gives me four Cure III's, two Erases, and two Paralynas. While normally I may cast so infrequently that these this should be sufficient, it could be a big issue during any particular rough stretch during a fight. Let's say, a homing missile after which the RDM pulls hate and dies. Four Cure III's, two Erases, and two Paralynas plus the BRD's cures should gives me *just enough* MP to fix the tanks. But afterward I'm waiting four ticks during which time my tanks can't get cure, two ticks where they can't get erased, or one tick where they can't get paralyna'd. If I rest its a guaranteed death sentence for the tanks cause I can't cancel the resting animation fast enough to cast. So my small MP pool leaves the party with absolutely zero room for error in a situation where room for error is most needed. If I had a larger MP pool by just 200 I could self heal the tanks after missile completely saving the Bard's MP and the Bard could take over healing while I rest.

Is this situation frequent? Not very. Is it possible? Yes. Is your damage so important you are willing to risk four ticks during which time my tanks can't get cures, two ticks where they can't get erased, or one tick where they can't get paralyna'd rather than marginally gimp your QD's and what not?

[Carrilei]

The RDM actually did hit the floor once. My MP was still fine.

And how is my Salvage example 'extremely unrealistic'? That actually happened last night. As in real, or realistic.

[Gredival]

The RDM actually did hit the floor once. My MP was still fine.

And how is my Salvage example 'extremely unrealistic'? That actually happened last night. As in real, or realistic.

As I explained in the post you completely skipped over in your "I'M A DD" RAGE MODE

low manning Salvage with three forms of refresh is not an analogous situation to HNMs

The context of this entire discussion is HNMs, not Salvage. I used your example to show even the situation ideal for your argument (an unrealistically high rate of refresh) MP gear could still be useful.

And my whole point was not that you would for sure wipe, but that MP gear could be useful. Which I was right in saying; in a situation where the main heal dies, your damage matters much less than your healing capabilities. More MP can only help in that situation. The fact that you're willing to go the extra mile to DD better but not try to backline better shows you're not about playing the best COR. If you were, you would optimize your play for any situation. You only want to optimize your pew pew.

[Carrilei]

Well the HNM(s) need to be specified before you discuss strategy. All we know is that the OP's shell is /Whm and MP gear only.

What I do know is this - for two of the most lucrative HNM's, Tiamat and Ixion, COR should be able to make legitimate contributions in terms of damage. QD on Tia, and ranged TP on Ixion.

[Spider-Dan]

A recent poster noted that at 460 MP they were "really able to help support the DD's." Do you really think that would change noticably with 300? It doesn't, if you don't believe me, why don't you try it?

It does. I have.

In Campaign, I go COR/WHM. My Cure3s heal for ~200 HP. I have ~250 MP in my Campaign gear... enough MP for five Cure3s. There is a world of difference between being able to heal for ~1000 HP on one MP bar (in my campaign gear) and being able to heal for ~2000 MP on one MP bar (in my full MP gear).

If you're only using your MP to top people up, then fine; you can run around with 200 MP and be happy. It's when your group takes a lot of damage that being able to cast a Curaga2 (without having your MP pool mutilated) becomes a valuable asset.

However, if you need to spam Cure III at that high a rate when you don't have much Refresh, guess what will occur? Whether you have 300 MP, or 400, or 500, or 600, you will run out of MP. Fast.

Yes. And that's precisely when having a big MP pool makes a difference.

If my group is taking huge damage over and over again, yeah, we're probably going to lose. But if I can have a big enough MP pool to fill up my group's HP bars, then sit on the backline and recover my MP pool before the next big damage surge, my goal is accomplished.

And how is my Salvage example 'extremely unrealistic'? That actually happened last night. As in real, or realistic.

It is realistic in the same sense and to the extent that I could say that my group will almost always have Lucky/X/XI effect on them, and then cite Apollyon NW/NE/SW (where you get Wild Card, Random Deal, Snake Eye, and Fold back on every floor) as support for my statement.

Salvage MP gain does not really correspond to the MP regeneration you will see across the rest of the game.

[Sinharvest]

I had something typed up and ready to go but I see Gredival and Spider-Dan pretty much said what I was going to say only they worded it better and was more in depth. Well said and I agree.

[Gredival]

Well the HNM(s) need to be specified before you discuss strategy. All we know is that the OP's shell is /Whm and MP gear only.

What I do know is this - for two of the most lucrative HNM's, Tiamat and Ixion, COR should be able to make legitimate contributions in terms of damage. QD on Tia, and ranged TP on Ixion.

Critical reading.

The key point here is efficiency. You should use MP gear so long as the heavy DD's can do better damage with better support you provide with that extra MP than the extra damage you yourself will deal by not using MP gear ... in any HNM fight the gradient between gimp QDs and optimized QDs will never ever compensate for failing to support your BLMs.

I never said don't use QD on HNMs, even if you use MP gear. I said don't sacrifice any support ability to optimize your damage when your support ability helps the alliance far more than your damage does.

I maintain that at virtually any HNM the dmg you lose from MP gear will be far outweighed by the potential damage you add to your party.

Even on Tiamat, the best situation for you, the difference between optimized QD and QD in your MP gear will be outstripped by difference in potential damage the BLMs can achieve with the greater support you offer with a larger MP pool. The more you can cure them and take off their plague, the more time they spend shooting their lazers. Four or five BLMs each getting off one more nuke before they have to rest will far far far outstrip the difference in damage lost between you doing crap QDs and crap+5 QDs

[Haroun]

If your BLMs are getting hit by AoE on Tiamat, either the tanks need to position it better or the mages need to learn not to stand next to the wall/rock.

[Gredival]

Tebbad Wing Range = 30"
Black Mage Casting Range = 20"

Plus you can use MP for saving BLMs that get drawn in and take beats, or for when Tiamat runs over after a double roar, etc.

[Haroun]

If Tiamat is positioned properly, mages should be able to use terrain to stand within 20' and not be touched by any AoEs (Tebbad Wing included)

[TybudX]

edit - wrong post blah blah blah

[Starr]

If Tiamat is positioned properly, mages should be able to use terrain to stand within 20' and not be touched by any AoEs (Tebbad Wing included)

Must agree, have never seen back line getting winged (I just stand by them like a sheep and don't personally know positioning).