ISREAL GUILTY OF GAZA WAR CRIMES?

[Faris]

the conflict is derived from religious conflicts..then it did evolve to a political, conquest conflict.
the reason why jews chose that specific land is because of the Torat saying that this land belonged to them and that God gave them that land.

[Khajit]

Only if a more powerful country had been in control of us since 1900 until about 1948, basically ignoring a handful of bullets in their own mandate, not to mention an enormous influx of foreigners for the last couple of decades.

Yeah, totally the same thing.

You skipped out the parts involving bribery of high ranking officials, manipulation of the law(as in actually altering it to suit them vs taking just laws and abusing them) to defraud individuals with families owning land in an area going back literally 4000 years aka the inception of some cities, incitement of riots and previously nonexistent racial tensions so that murders of certain ethnic groups can be carried out( like for example 500 arabs killed vs 10 jews),etc etc etc

[Gokulo]

The topic says "Is Real guilty of gaza war crimes" so the 3 page discussion is pointless.

[Faris]

nice

[Elvis]

the conflict is derived from religious conflicts..then it did evolve to a political, conquest conflict.
the reason why jews chose that specific land is because of the Torat saying that this land belonged to them and that God gave them that land.

Firas, there were other areas in consideration by the ZIONISTS. Not 'the Jews'.

There are only 2 categories of people who recognize Israel as 'the Jewish State' IMO - antisemites and Zionists.

After all, if 'the Jewish State' does something wrong, you can blame Judaism and Jews in general right?

How often is Islam in it's entirety and Muslims (who may have nothing to do w/ [whatever] and whom are often the target of Islamic terrorism) blamed because of Islamic radicalism/terrorism? And this is the fringe terrorist groups.

Israel is a State. Official, mainstream, accepted. It calls itself 'the Jewish State' - the homeland of 'the Jewish people'.

Following this logic, why shouldn't we blame 'the Muslims' for what Iran - the Islamic Republic - does? Or Saudi Arabia? Or blah blah.

Factor in how often Zionists invoke the Holocaust to justify their policies against the Palestinians/the Lebanese and now Iran.

Zionism is a construct of Jewish identity. However, it is not THE construct of Jewish identity. Zionism is a nationalistic ideology. Tell me, would you blame all Christians for Manifest Destiny? And perhaps 'blame' is the incorrect word. Would you use the terminology, 'the Christians' dot dot dot?

I think Palestinian nationalism took shape as a response to Zionism. It was described as being religious in character early on, by Benny Morris. However, Morris also says that the 'chief motor' of Arab antagonism to Zionism was the FEAR of displacement and dispossession.

The Palestinian Arabs were afraid of losing their homes and land. And that's what happened. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinian took place before the 48' War began. Most of the war was fought inside the Palestinian portion of the partition plan. There was a concerted effort to drive the Arabs in that area out of their homes. You couldn't have a Jewish State w/ all those Arabs.

So I think religion played a role. It was and is a powerful unifying force/rally call. It's the SOLE reason for the support of Christian Zionists in the US.

EDIT:

I don't believe in the notion of 'right to exist' for States. Certainly not a JEWISH (or Christian, or Islamic, or Scientologist) State.

States are political entities. People have the right to self-determination though. Just think about how most nation-states are formed?

Think of our own history.

How does Israel have a 'right to exist'? What does that mean? I think the concept is irrelevant because the nation-state model itself is deeply flawed but it's also the only game in town.

We simply have to recognize that Israel exists. That there is a cultural entity known as 'Israel'. That people live in 'Israel'. To change this entity, would require lots of violence and atrocity - which is what the Zionists did to the Palestinian Arabs in 48' to form 'Israel'.

That's how States are formed. So what to do now is to accept Israel as it is, within the 67' borders. Israel should accept the Palestinian right to self-determination. They should accept Palestinian's basic human rights. That would be a start. The Palestinian resistance - whether it be the Hamas or whoever, must halt terrorist acts and intentional targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure. However, at the same time, there needs to be some intellectual acknowledgment (at the very least) that the occupation and the overwhelming and disproportionate violence and abuse of the Palestinians by the Israeli government creates an environment where terrorism perpetuates itself.

[Beckwin]

but political realities often prevail over idealism/universal morality

holy fuck where is kuya to rage at this

and sorry Firas, but just because a religion is derived from a certain word.... doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean, Christianity is derived from the name of Christ, yet Christians and the modern establishment of Christianity do all kinds of un-Christlike shit. Same with Islam. I think Elvis nailed it comparing the philosophy/teaching side and individual synthesis versus centralized religious dogma.

[Faris]

so if we use food for only food fights, its main purpose drops?

no, its just being misused, right?

[Kuya]

Raging about what?

[thestalkmore]

I don't understand why everyone sees WW3 as such an unattractive option. Didn't you guys see Saving Private Ryan? Shit looks awesome.

[ZarakiKujata]

I don't understand why everyone sees WW3 as such an unattractive option. Didn't you guys see Saving Private Ryan? Shit looks awesome.

Well I mean it would put us out of our collective misery a lot faster then having to suffer through the hell that climate change will bring. OFC said climate change will probably spark WW3 anyways so I guess win/win?

[Faris]

Firas, there were other areas in consideration by the ZIONISTS. Not 'the Jews'.

There are only 2 categories of people who recognize Israel as 'the Jewish State' IMO - antisemites and Zionists.

After all, if 'the Jewish State' does something wrong, you can blame Judaism and Jews in general right?

How often is Islam in it's entirety and Muslims (who may have nothing to do w/ [whatever] and whom are often the target of Islamic terrorism) blamed because of Islamic radicalism/terrorism? And this is the fringe terrorist groups.

Israel is a State. Official, mainstream, accepted. It calls itself 'the Jewish State' - the homeland of 'the Jewish people'.

Following this logic, why shouldn't we blame 'the Muslims' for what Iran - the Islamic Republic - does? Or Saudi Arabia? Or blah blah.

Factor in how often Zionists invoke the Holocaust to justify their policies against the Palestinians/the Lebanese and now Iran.

Zionism is a construct of Jewish identity. However, it is not THE construct of Jewish identity. Zionism is a nationalistic ideology. Tell me, would you blame all Christians for Manifest Destiny? And perhaps 'blame' is the incorrect word. Would you use the terminology, 'the Christians' dot dot dot?

I think Palestinian nationalism took shape as a response to Zionism. It was described as being religious in character early on, by Benny Morris. However, Morris also says that the 'chief motor' of Arab antagonism to Zionism was the FEAR of displacement and dispossession.

The Palestinian Arabs were afraid of losing their homes and land. And that's what happened. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinian took place before the 48' War began. Most of the war was fought inside the Palestinian portion of the partition plan. There was a concerted effort to drive the Arabs in that area out of their homes. You couldn't have a Jewish State w/ all those Arabs.

So I think religion played a role. It was and is a powerful unifying force/rally call. It's the SOLE reason for the support of Christian Zionists in the US.

EDIT:

I don't believe in the notion of 'right to exist' for States. Certainly not a JEWISH (or Christian, or Islamic, or Scientologist) State.

States are political entities. People have the right to self-determination though. Just think about how most nation-states are formed?

Think of our own history.

How does Israel have a 'right to exist'? What does that mean? I think the concept is irrelevant because the nation-state model itself is deeply flawed but it's also the only game in town.

We simply have to recognize that Israel exists. That there is a cultural entity known as 'Israel'. That people live in 'Israel'. To change this entity, would require lots of violence and atrocity - which is what the Zionists did to the Palestinian Arabs in 48' to form 'Israel'.

That's how States are formed. So what to do now is to accept Israel as it is, within the 67' borders. Israel should accept the Palestinian right to self-determination. They should accept Palestinian's basic human rights. That would be a start. The Palestinian resistance - whether it be the Hamas or whoever, must halt terrorist acts and intentional targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure. However, at the same time, there needs to be some intellectual acknowledgment (at the very least) that the occupation and the overwhelming and disproportionate violence and abuse of the Palestinians by the Israeli government creates an environment where terrorism perpetuates itself.

a very valid point my friend.

i wonder what the majority of the jews think of israel.

[Conformity]

Personally, i think that as long as there is oil in the middle east there will be israel. once the oil leaves the middle east there will be a dwindleing of the power of that state. This is because the strength of israel is artifically maintanied through weapons provided by the united states.

If we accept the fact that the united states and other countries use israel as their attack dog to control the oil producing countries surrounding it then we can also assume that once the oil runs out there will be little/no reason to supply them with high end technology.

The conclusion of what Im saying is obvious so I will not bother saying it.

[Faris]

The conclusion of what Im saying is obvious so I will not bother saying it.

that the arabs will realize that since israel has no military support from the U.S, its become weaker and more vulnerable to be attacked..and we will carry out operation holocaust II..
and by that, we will rid palestine (and the world, if i dare add) from the trecherious zionists?!

I'd say fuck yeah to that.


EDIT: : and just a thing to think about; dont you find it weird that the region where all the 3 religions came from has the most problems, and is the most rich in resources..hmm hmm.

[archibaldcrane]

EDIT: : and just a thing to think about; dont you find it weird that the region where all the 3 religions came from has the most problems, and is the most rich in one single resource and completely and utterly worthless otherwise?

ftfy

No, I don't find it very weird.

[Elvis]

Yea, I agree w/ your basic point Conformity.

One thing though, and this ties in to the conception ( a population belief in a post-911 world ) of a 'Israel Lobby'.

I can't think of a reason we wouldn't be supporting Israel. It certainly follows the same strategies we employed elsewhere in the world when we wanted our economic interests protected.

We divide and conquer. We then prop up the worst human being in a country to become the leader. Just look around the Arab world and you'll see a rogues gallery of fail. Family dictatorships, Radical Islamists (we liked them when they hated the Russians), phony Presidents who rule for 25 years due to the 'State' being in a 'state of emergency', etc.

That being said, Hamas is politically and tactically stupid - but they aren't corrupt like the PA. The "PA" is deeply corrupt. But, the outside pressure they are inflicted with exacerbates their failings. Similarly, there are womens rights activists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. There are radical and intensely tribal Islamists holding back progress. There has been a consistent non-violent movement of resistance to the Israeli colonization of Palestine.

There is lots of collusion between the interests of our ruling elites and institutional forces as well as that of ethnocentric/tribal Jewish Zionists. By the way, I consider the Christian Zionists to be mental midgets, only interested in their eschatology. No matter how interesting and complex the formation of their movement was.

So...all in all, it's hard to hope that A) we'll ever be out of the ME in a pragmatic (not hippie idealistic) sense and B) those people will be able to have a normal life that isn't trampled on by both external imperialistic forces and their own internal problems (cultural, religious, and universal corruption that has nothing to do w/ the former 2).

This is why I just can't imagine Iraq ever being independent. Or Afghanistan for that matter.

[Kuya]

When oil is gone, water will probably be the next source of conflict, seeing as how our water consumption is going up astronomically every year. And considering how relative rare water is in the ME, it will probably cause scores of conflict (even though it already has). If it just so happens that oil runs out before a full blown water crisis, then it's pretty likely we're going to ignore the Middle East after paying so much attention to it for decades, and leave it to its fate.

[Conformity]

When oil is gone, water will probably be the next source of conflict, seeing as how our water consumption is going up astronomically every year. And considering how relative rare water is in the ME, it will probably cause scores of conflict (even though it already has). If it just so happens that oil runs out before a full blown water crisis, then it's pretty likely we're going to ignore the Middle East after paying so much attention to it for decades, and leave it to its fate.

Glad my ass is in the United States, fuck living over in iran

[Meat]

that the arabs will realize that since israel has no military support from the U.S, its become weaker and more vulnerable to be attacked..and we will carry out operation holocaust II..
and by that, we will rid palestine (and the world, if i dare add) from the trecherious zionists?!

I'd say fuck yeah to that.


EDIT: : and just a thing to think about; dont you find it weird that the region where all the 3 religions came from has the most problems, and is the most rich in resources..hmm hmm.

No military support, have you ever seen an episode of future weapons? The one thing Israel excels at is in house weapons development.

About 50 years after we develop our own nukes you backwards camel fuckers have what maybe finally enriched uranium. You guys are welcomed to try again, we could use some fresh land

[Kuya]

lol

[Faris]

No military support, have you ever seen an episode of future weapons? The one thing Israel excels at is in house weapons development.

About 50 years after we develop our own nukes you backwards camel fuckers have what maybe finally enriched uranium. You guys are welcomed to try again, we could use some fresh land

plz dont hurt me;;