Uhm wth wikia?

[Spider-Dan]

1) dont know how people can make fun of the 'BG crowd' for taking pride in their wiki.

Because the wiki was created out of a drama-filled pissing match engineered and driven by people who had no stake in the game to begin with.

It was nothing more than an excuse to bash another FFXI resource, fueled rather transparently by "lolalla"-style elitism. (See: "wtf look at this bard guide lolz") This is the same reason that you had people who ostensibly don't even use alla carrying torches and pitchforks over the creation of the ZAM network.

2) nothing is free, not even on the internet.

A statement thoroughly devoid of content.

3) dont let people cite you.

... the f*ck? Don't let people cite you? What kind of absurdity is this?

4) as for comments undermining the amount of information pilfered from BG... there was/is a reason why the endgame crowd gravitated/gravitates towards BG. Everyone else just kind of followed... for i dont know what reason. It certainly wasnt because they were interested in the cutting edge endgame information that was coming out of BG when its membership had its first major boom. I dont know what it was that brought people like this to the bg forums... but dont think that BG has not made a significant impact on how this game is played.

That's funny, because I sure do remember reading a hell of a lot of info on FFXI websites for YEARS before BG was on my radar.

Was BG the first place to have translated Studio Gobli data? Did it have data and strategies from the importer community that was playing this game for over a year prior to the NA release? Did it have guides for completing quests and missions? Did it have comprehensive, searchable item lists?

Stop rewriting history. There are plenty of other sites like FFXIOnline, MysteryTour, Somepage, and yes, even Alla that contributed a hell of a lot to the FFXI community before BG was even relevant.

[QuePsiXI]

Stop rewriting history.

Well, that's the problem. People did just that. And so the wiki contributes nothing more than just having the name. Now, if an unpopular source like Alla or even Brady Games was this barren*, people would have a field day.

*Now, obviously, their problem is having information that is just completely laughable, so do not confuse me as insinuating they're without (many, many, unforgivable) fault(s).

Ninja'd

[willriker]

heheh w/e man if you cant admit that the information derived on the bg forums has changed the way the game is played... and that information is now on the originalwiki... i just dont know what else to say.

[Killkenny]

When the whole enmity model was produced on my LJ, I specifically stated I would not want it regurgitated on the wiki. Even today it's still not reproduced there - either by respect or laziness (try reproducing 1000+ spells/abilities), but they do offer a brief overview (followed by info I would consider suspect or just plain wrong/irrelevant), then cite me.

My reasoning for not wanting my work regurgitated there was that I made a ton of ninja edits to the tables. If someone else was try to reproduce said values, even with citing me, you would have 2 sources of the "same" information, but one of them is updated by the researcher and one is not. The result is a high probability that the information on the wiki becomes outdated quickly without my personal verification. This causes both confusion, and attribution of 'bad info' to myself and those involved in the actual research. You could argue I could have directly edited the wiki instead of my own site; however, Wiki is a community editor, and I did not want my research next to stuff like "Koenig body is for tanks and has +20CHR, therefore CHR must affect hate" and stuff like that.

Your reasons for not wanting enmity tables regurgitated on wiki are not the same as the other people, who seem butthurt (and as Demosthenes11 said majority of these peopler are the BG "in" crowd or aspiring members of it). If anything your enmity tables are the exception that proves the rule because it is such a vast quantity of data that hasn't been rechecked.

It does feel a lot like the pre-salvage bans where BG had almost disappeared up its own ass and everyone who didn't read/post here was a mental leper. This isn't a mecca of information its just got a better ratio of posts worth reading vs endless pages of crap.

[Viq]

4)...there was/is a reason why the endgame crowd gravitated/gravitates towards BG.

Ondori's videos and Big Kills?

[ringthree]

Because the wiki was created out of a drama-filled pissing match engineered and driven by people who had no stake in the game to begin with.

It was nothing more than an excuse to bash another FFXI resource, fueled rather transparently by "lolalla"-style elitism. (See: "wtf look at this bard guide lolz") This is the same reason that you had people who ostensibly don't even use alla carrying torches and pitchforks over the creation of the ZAM network.


A statement thoroughly devoid of content.


... the f*ck? Don't let people cite you? What kind of absurdity is this?


That's funny, because I sure do remember reading a hell of a lot of info on FFXI websites for YEARS before BG was on my radar.

Was BG the first place to have translated Studio Gobli data? Did it have data and strategies from the importer community that was playing this game for over a year prior to the NA release? Did it have guides for completing quests and missions? Did it have comprehensive, searchable item lists?

Stop rewriting history. There are plenty of other sites like FFXIOnline, MysteryTour, Somepage, and yes, even Alla that contributed a hell of a lot to the FFXI community before BG was even relevant.

Sorry Will, while I agree with you on most things, and respect you a lot, I have to go with Dan here. There is no sheen of false righteousness in his description.

[ringthree]

heheh w/e man if you cant admit that the information derived on the bg forums has changed the way the game is played... and that information is now on the originalwiki... i just dont know what else to say.

Will a lot of that information was put on the FFXIwiki by BG forums people.

[Kirschy]

Are you saying that FFXIclopedia, as a policy, prohibits links to research? Because otherwise, your complaint is pretty pointless; Wikia does not control whether or not people want to take the time to cite their sources, any more than BGwiki does.

The alternative is to go the Wikipedia route of "requiring" a citation for everything (as well as "no original research"), which is beyond pointless for a game wiki.

When people seem to put info on Wiki, they often leave out the research/source. My guess is that they don't want to seem like they're stealing info? I honestly don't know. But posting info w/o a source/research makes it difficult to verify the data. To re-use the example I used before, they have level correction formulas for accuracy, but no source/research on it. It turns out the the formula seems to be correct, but it had to come from somewhere. I'd like to know where the testing came from so I can differentiate it from misguided info. (Also interested in the testing mechanism used.)

To give an example of my own research, the victory march page contains the /1024ths tiers. (Again I don't care at all that no credit was given to me, or anyone else.) But nowhere else on the wiki is the /1024th system discussed or explained. Someone who reads this wiki would have no idea how /1024ths was able to be deduced to test for themselves (or design their own tests for something related.) In fact they have no way of comparing it to some of the false info that ends up there sometimes. Unfortunately this is true for a bunch of articles.

I probably should have explained in my first post. I'm not anti-wiki. I use it myself because it does what I need it to do majority of the time. But it's a personal gripe of mine that I can't find out where certian formulas and testing came from. Like you said, that involves the people who update the wiki, not the wiki itself~

[Bockage]

I'm almost willing to bet in the week or so since I first posted, not one article on BG Wiki hasn't been updated.

You would have lost that bet.

http://bg-wiki.com/index.php?title=S...00&hideminor=0

[Seraph]

Sorry Will, while I agree with you on most things, and respect you a lot, I have to go with Dan here. There is no sheen of false righteousness in his description.

It's only false righteousness until they steal your shit.

[Septimus]

Were it up to me, I would ban every person who regularly contributes to otherwiki from this server. I am sure someone will want to respond "Oh you're just butt-hurt" or "that's just sour grapes" or whatever, save your breath because I don't give a shit. I think I have given enough to the BG community to be able to say how I feel in this case.

Nearly every month I spend days writing, editing, and/or coding fun little front-page updates for the forum users. I'm not paid to do this, I don't get anything from the linkshell to do it, I do it because it adds to the personality of the site and it (supposedly) entertains you, our users. (Though you wouldn't know half of the time by the responses.) This time that I spend writing sarcastic and sometimes caustic (oh next update, what fun you shall be) updates for you is time that I could spend instead adding content to BGWiki. (Hey, look! A link.) There is a lot of take from the community, I am here to ask for a little give.

You like those little front page updates that we do? Then show your appreciation by going and editing a few wiki pages for me. We have about a half-dozen highly motivated editors, if we had 20 motivated editors people wouldn't be able complain that BGWiki lacks content for very long. If you want to help and don't know where to start, ask me- I can provide you with lists of things that you can do. If you want to help but don't know anything about wiki code, ask us- we have a forum dedicated to asking questions from people who didn't know wiki code when they started editing either. If you think that BGWiki would be better off being a strategy wiki, contribute- I think it would be great and would love the help. Am I saying that people owe us for these forums? No. What I am saying is that BGWiki isn't the wiki of the OrderoftheBlueGartr linkshell, it is the wiki of our community. It is about time to take some pride in your community. And if you want to spit on this community, you know where the door is.

[Yugl]

Hey guys Wikis have pros and cons.

Edit: There's codes for using wiki? Wouldn't it be easier if it worked like a sign up sheet where you ask for tags, title, description, and stuff then let the person input the info and it auto-changes to code format?

[Seraph]

I'm still convinced that this:

File:Ravin Raven.jpg - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

is just a photoshop of this:

Image:Ravin.jpg - BGWiki

...which back in the hay-day of the wiki split I specifically said BGwiki could use, and Otherwiki couldn't. Oh sure, they took my original down (which they just yoinked without asking), and then pasted their edited copy of it so I couldn't bitch. It's seriously the Ebaums World of FFXI. People who think that the 'BG elite' has their head up their own asses just does not comprehend the completely higher tier of asshole that describes the antics that Otherwiki pulled in the past. They couldn't even be bothered to put a citation on there, and one of their fucking admins is the one who originally posted it, and then reposted it 7 days later. You can't blame 'users' for that.

[Demosthenes11]

Were it up to me, I would ban every person who regularly contributes to otherwiki from this server. I am sure someone will want to respond "Oh you're just butt-hurt" or "that's just sour grapes" or whatever, save your breath because I don't give a shit. I think I have given enough to the BG community to be able to say how I feel in this case.

Nearly every month I spend days writing, editing, and/or coding fun little front-page updates for the forum users. I'm not paid to do this, I don't get anything from the linkshell to do it, I do it because it adds to the personality of the site and it (supposedly) entertains you, our users. (Though you wouldn't know half of the time by the responses.) This time that I spend writing sarcastic and sometimes caustic (oh next update, what fun you shall be) updates for you is time that I could spend instead adding content to BGWiki. (Hey, look! A link.) There is a lot of take from the community, I am here to ask for a little give.

You like those little front page updates that we do? Then show your appreciation by going and editing a few wiki pages for me. We have about a half-dozen highly motivated editors, if we had 20 motivated editors people wouldn't be able complain that BGWiki lacks content for very long. If you want to help and don't know where to start, ask me- I can provide you with lists of things that you can do. If you want to help but don't know anything about wiki code, ask us- we have a forum dedicated to asking questions from people who didn't know wiki code when they started editing either. If you think that BGWiki would be better off being a strategy wiki, contribute- I think it would be great and would love the help. Am I saying that people owe us for these forums? No. What I am saying is that BGWiki isn't the wiki of the OrderoftheBlueGartr linkshell, it is the wiki of our community. It is about time to take some pride in your community. And if you want to spit on this community, you know where the door is.

you didn't even address what everyone is saying:
the only reason to update bgwiki is for some sense of moral righteousness that 95% of people don't care about. and yes, you are butthurt if you want to ban people that update otherwiki

[Ashira]

I've tried editing/correcting otherwiki with data I've personally researched or been a part of. My changes were reversed within a day.

I started off as an editor with BGWiki and probably still have access, I'm not sure - but gave up on that pretty quickly when everything I did was getting double checked by someone who was trying to outshine me every step of the way.

[Spider-Dan]

It's only false righteousness until they steal your shit.

...for very small values of "steal."

If, by "steal," you mean "reprint freely-available research about a game created by a third-party company under a documentation/redistribution license that allows anyone else to copy and/or reprint said research for free," then yes, I guess you could call it "stealing."

[Yugl]

So lets say one side is deemed winner (Pro-BGWiki v No-BGWiki); what would be accomplished?

[Corrderio]

So lets say one side is deemed winner (Pro-BGWiki v No-BGWiki); what would be accomplished?

Bigger ePeen?

[Spider-Dan]

Were it up to me, I would ban every person who regularly contributes to otherwiki from this server.

[...]

What I am saying is that BGWiki isn't the wiki of the OrderoftheBlueGartr linkshell, it is the wiki of our community. It is about time to take some pride in your community. And if you want to spit on this community, you know where the door is.

So basically, were it up to you, carrying water for a grudge between BG's administration and 'clopedia's administration would be the price of entry to these forums? Would it be equally reasonable for 'clopedia to IP ban anyone with over 50 posts to BG?

Editing 'clopedia is not "spitting on the community." The "community" is not solely comprised of BG and its subsidiaries. Adding information to either wiki is HELPING the FFXI community as a whole.

If you really want to discuss what is and is not "spitting on the community," I'd just like to point out that in the open source world, forking a project over a personal grudge and splintering (what would otherwise be) unified development based on a whim would probably fall pretty squarely in that category.

[Mojo]

It should also be pointed out that accusations of wiki 'stealing' information are very ironic. Unless the person who discovered the data uploads it themselves, then BG wiki essentially commits the same 'theft.' i.e. BG wiki does not have some birthright to information posted on BG forums.

Claims from two years ago about wiki reverting changes you made aren't applicable anymore.

Were it up to me, I would ban every person who regularly contributes to otherwiki from this server. I am sure someone will want to respond "Oh you're just butt-hurt" or "that's just sour grapes" or whatever, save your breath because I don't give a shit. I think I have given enough to the BG community to be able to say how I feel in this case.

Nearly every month I spend days writing, editing, and/or coding fun little front-page updates for the forum users. I'm not paid to do this, I don't get anything from the linkshell to do it, I do it because it adds to the personality of the site and it (supposedly) entertains you, our users. (Though you wouldn't know half of the time by the responses.) This time that I spend writing sarcastic and sometimes caustic (oh next update, what fun you shall be) updates for you is time that I could spend instead adding content to BGWiki. (Hey, look! A link.) There is a lot of take from the community, I am here to ask for a little give.

You like those little front page updates that we do? Then show your appreciation by going and editing a few wiki pages for me. We have about a half-dozen highly motivated editors, if we had 20 motivated editors people wouldn't be able complain that BGWiki lacks content for very long. If you want to help and don't know where to start, ask me- I can provide you with lists of things that you can do. If you want to help but don't know anything about wiki code, ask us- we have a forum dedicated to asking questions from people who didn't know wiki code when they started editing either. If you think that BGWiki would be better off being a strategy wiki, contribute- I think it would be great and would love the help. Am I saying that people owe us for these forums? No. What I am saying is that BGWiki isn't the wiki of the OrderoftheBlueGartr linkshell, it is the wiki of our community. It is about time to take some pride in your community. And if you want to spit on this community, you know where the door is.

It's somewhat arrogant to assume that we're all part of some community and BG wiki is our wiki. The number of people who would actually claim that is probably very small. Also, the idea of banning people who contribute to wiki is probably the most petty thing I've read in a long time.