Goodbye present - how to kill AV (before it's patched)

[Secksi]

I think that's the whole point? The fear is now that it'll get patched before anyone can actually pull this off since it'll be so hyped after this thread. The idea itself is older than dirt (by internet standards), but finally instead of speculating about it or joking about it, a few groups of people actually amassed the time and manpower to test its viability, only to potentially lose the opportunity to realize it fully, because some low-level grunt in their testing got banned for doing something stupid and decided he wanted to go out in a blaze of BG glory. Is that pretty close to what the issue is here?

If you're referring to Seedz, he is their shellholder. Otherwise idk.

Edit-off topic of your post.

As much as I wouldn't want to see their shell actually down AV(same server, competing shell, etc). Seeing this in practice after reading about it so long is pretty interesting to me at least. They are(were?) a skilled shell and it doesn't surprise me they were seemingly so close.

Fuck you Middle and Falcor.

[FailureMidgard]

I forget who I had the debate with over Tier1 SCH merits when they came out (could have been you, please forgive me for not knowing), and someone did convince me to level MV merits over the other choices; however, it was most definitely not for this reason.

Again, I just want to point out that, yes, the average person doesn't know anything about SCH and I don't really blame them. Short of absolutely handing them proof that this works (a video), this would have gone unnoticed. The unfortunate part for those of us that actually put time into this is that's exactly what happened.

Beyond this, this is rather simple math (to some of us at least) on paper; however, to do it in practice is much more difficult than it looks. To give you an idea, we took that Hydra 9 MV video in July... and no one's kill AV with it yet. It's not as fool-proof as it looks, especially without ONEVENT. I'd say the math is the easiest part, and it's the issues in practice that make this a difficult strategy to mass-produce.

On one hand, I don't want to over-hype the difficulty of the math behind this idea - it's pretty simple to a good number of players. On the other hand, I don't agree with people who understood the math and are now acting like "I told you so!". The testing of this was one of the absolute most frustrating things I've ever done in this game and micro managing all the possible sources of error and lack of precision was a nightmare. Maybe my experience with this would have been different with a sync tool like onevent, I don't know.

I felt we were close, and that's why seeing this thread was so frustrating to me today.

Yea, you quoted my post anyway, and it was more to do with the math behind just what Sublimation merits did than Helices stacking, but it was still all discussed in the same thread (as well as other threads, as you mentioned),

I full well acknowledge that it isn't easy to time or coordinate, I'm pretty sure somewhere I even said as much, but said that I thought if you practiced enough, you could get the timing down to be able to get 1/4 at worst, I thought. With a relatively small amount of practice, I was able to predict ticks before beginning my cast at least that often.

And, it's not so much "I told you so" that I'm trying to get across, but it's pretty irritating when all of this was said so long ago and ignored, but when some random asshole posts this, everyone goes crazy.

Anyway, as I said already in this thread, props to someone who actually kills AV with this. I still think it's doable, and I still think it's insanely hard. I don't think dropping a Yovra is the least bit impressive though, WHICH IS ALL HIS VIDEO HAD. I also don't think 50% on Hydra is really that impressive (though I do understand the fact that the 9stack is why it is impressive...I still say you will never have 100% accuracy on landing the 9, so it's not a matter of being perfect, it's a matter of trying repeatedly and succeeding on 1/4 or whatever...or just aiming for less dmg from 60% to X on AV). I'm unsure how many buffs the original caster had there, but it seems to me you should be able to more than double initial damage with proper buffs as well (I haven't done the math, just seems like there's a ton of buffs to be stacked).

Anyway Kaeko, you say you were close, and you acknowledge all this information was known 6 months ago. Maybe this will cause a ton of people to go try...but if it took you months to be able to get it down right, I don't think you're going to see AV kills rolling in tomorrow...so go get it done!

[Cairthenn]

yea exactly

thats why people who wanna pull off some AV stuffs should go do this fast

we know it will get fix anyway

my shell got no 18 sch {That's too bad}

SE prolly got some email trigger on AV

whoever beats AV will trigger a mail to SE with the battle logs

You don't need 18, you need 10 (or 9). In fact, having any more than 10 will do absolutely nothing to benefit you.

[The_OG_Nelta]

I thought the video OP posted was JOL

[Arthars]

You don't need 18, you need 10 (or 9). In fact, having any more than 10 will do absolutely nothing to benefit you.

nice. that makes room for some COR to possibly refresh modus then lol

wild card and random deal +_+

[Kaeko]

Yea, you quoted my post anyway, and it was more to do with the math behind just what Sublimation merits did than Helices stacking, but it was still all discussed in the same thread (as well as other threads, as you mentioned),

I full well acknowledge that it isn't easy to time or coordinate, I'm pretty sure somewhere I even said as much, but said that I thought if you practiced enough, you could get the timing down to be able to get 1/4 at worst, I thought. With a relatively small amount of practice, I was able to predict ticks before beginning my cast at least that often.

And, it's not so much "I told you so" that I'm trying to get across, but it's pretty irritating when all of this was said so long ago and ignored, but when some random asshole posts this, everyone goes crazy.

Anyway, as I said already in this thread, props to someone who actually kills AV with this. I still think it's doable, and I still think it's insanely hard. I don't think dropping a Yovra is the least bit impressive though, WHICH IS ALL HIS VIDEO HAD. I also don't think 50% on Hydra is really that impressive (though I do understand the fact that the 9stack is why it is impressive...I still say you will never have 100% accuracy on landing the 9, so it's not a matter of being perfect, it's a matter of trying repeatedly and succeeding on 1/4 or whatever...or just aiming for less dmg from 60% to X on AV). I'm unsure how many buffs the original caster had there, but it seems to me you should be able to more than double initial damage with proper buffs as well (I haven't done the math, just seems like there's a ton of buffs to be stacked).

Anyway Kaeko, you say you were close, and you acknowledge all this information was known 6 months ago. Maybe this will cause a ton of people to go try...but if it took you months to be able to get it down right, I don't think you're going to see AV kills rolling in tomorrow...so go get it done!

Based on the math, I felt the same way at first - that given some practice I could at least nail the timing down 33% or better % of the time. The frustrating thing as time went on was that it seemed that there were unknown confounding factors causing misses, even when we 100% knew when the tick would occur.

In the end, I felt that there were 2 issues when dealing with "timing" - (1) the helix user's timing based on when he knew the tick would occur, and (2) the syncing of the MVs. I can only control (1), but not (2). In fact, there is very little your group can do about (2) other than using a sync tool like onevent, which we lacked. Perhaps this is why Cair's group claimed a much higher 9 MV success rate than the other groups. We basically had the same Helix timing.

The point is though, taking this idea from paper to practice was horribly difficult without onevent at least. I won't ever make the case that this was a mentally challenging idea to come up with on paper, but it was a challenge to get to work in practice reliably.

[lesiu]

we did it like month ago. best we got was 91% timing is really hard. i dont remember what was our problem tho i think we had like 2 SCH short. prolly gonna try it sometime soon again.

Strat is very old tho. its hard to do.

~Jast, Ramuh

[FailureMidgard]

I thought the video OP posted was JOL

May want to rewatch it, and look at the enemy name. Definitely Om'yovra.

nice. that makes room for some COR to possibly refresh modus then lol

wild card and random deal +_+

Or a tank with proper tank support, a bard for SV songs, a cor + blm for evoker's+-MDB WS, a smn for more MAB, a SAM to open a SC (multi-step ideally?), etc. If you buff the base dmg enough, it even drops the need for 1 sch, which makes the timing infinitely easier.

[FailureMidgard]

Based on the math, I felt the same way at first - that given some practice I could at least nail the timing down 33% or better % of the time. The frustrating thing as time went on was that it seemed that there were unknown confounding factors causing misses, even when we 100% knew when the tick would occur.

In the end, I felt that there were 2 issues when dealing with "timing" - (1) the helix user's timing based on when he knew the tick would occur, and (2) the syncing of the MVs. I can only control (1), but not (2). In fact, there is very little your group can do about (2) other than using a sync tool like onevent, which we lacked. Perhaps this is why Cair's group claimed a much higher 9 MV success rate than the other groups. We basically had the same Helix timing.

The point is though, taking this idea from paper to practice was horribly difficult without onevent at least. I won't ever make the case that this was a mentally challenging idea to come up with on paper, but it was a challenge to get to work in practice reliably.

Sure, I agree it's much harder to do there than on paper, but I still see no AV kills, and this entire thread is "on paper".

Also, are you 100% certain you need 9 and not 8? Have you gotten full buffs and tried a helix on AV? It seems to me knowing that it's definitely doable to get him to 60% while locking 2hrs and getting full buffs on a scholar, you could make this a lot easier potentially...

[Kaeko]

Sure, I agree it's much harder to do there than on paper, but I still see no AV kills, and this entire thread is "on paper".

Also, are you 100% certain you need 9 and not 8? Have you gotten full buffs and tried a helix on AV? It seems to me knowing that it's definitely doable to get him to 60% while locking 2hrs and getting full buffs on a scholar, you could make this a lot easier potentially...

If it helps theorycraft, the absolute highest damage you can do with a SCH/BLM taru full merits is about 160 I think - this is with even the little things like SMN buffs and INT potions. If you MB this and get the 1.3x bonus, this comes to ~208 damage on the MB.

@8MV 208 damage base gives 53,248 damage 80.6% HP

Technically if you had this setup, you could hold AV at 80-81% then blast it with a 8MV helix. If you go below 80%, you start to get damage reduction (starts -30%), so it's best to stick with above 80%.

To answer your question about full helix on AV, we have tried it. We went for a full 9 MV "magic bullet" a few weeks ago. The helix damages we got were about ~140, but failed to land 9 x9 times before depop. We were aiming to just repeatedly attempt 9 MV and "luck out". The extent of our knowledge is that (1) AV can be helix'd for over 130 damage, and (2) 9 MV works. So we just put them together. That's fairly good logic there imo.

I had LJ pics if you wanted to see the helix damage on AV.

[Thorny]

guys, guys, i'm gonna let you finish, but salvage duping was the best cheat ever

[FailureMidgard]

If it helps theorycraft, the absolute highest damage you can do with a SCH/BLM taru full merits is about 160 I think - this is with even the little things like SMN buffs and INT potions. If you MB this and get the 1.3x bonus, this comes to ~208 damage on the MB.

@8MV 208 damage base gives 53,248 damage 80.6% HP

Technically if you had this setup, you could hold AV at 80-81% then blast it with a 8MV helix. If you go below 80%, you start to get damage reduction (starts -30%), so it's best to stick with above 80%.

To answer your question about full helix on AV, we have tried it. We went for a full 9 MV "magic bullet" a few weeks ago. The helix damages we got were about ~140, but failed to land 9 x9 times before depop. We were aiming to just repeatedly attempt 9 MV and "luck out". The extent of our knowledge is that (1) AV can be helix'd for over 130 damage, and (2) 9 MV works. So we just put them together. That's fairly good logic there imo.

I had LJ pics if you wanted to see the helix damage on AV.

Your "little things" includes everything mentioned before? SVed etudes, 11 cor roll with blm, smn, the nyzul WS for -MDB, Diffusioned Memento Mori? Each 1 point of damage added adds 256 to what AV takes. If you missed any 1 of these buffs (did you diffusion memento mori?), that could easily be the difference between 80-81% (which cuts it very close to the damage reduction, as you said) to 83-84%.

And while your logic on the 9 works, and I think it is doable, it is just lucking out. With 8, it should be much more consistent.

Oh well, good luck either way.

[Yugl]

Tav Glitch > Salvage glitch.

[drwaffles]

.

[enoch]

disclaimer: drunken posting ahead

not a SCH or mathematician, but wouldn't the easiest way to patch this be to ignore MV and randomize the helix casting time within limits that would make it impossible to reliably land on ticks?

edit: nvm, i think i see where i went wrong.

[Titanss]

wow always thought kaeko came up with this.. fail

[Virtuous Saint]

If it helps theorycraft, the absolute highest damage you can do with a SCH/BLM taru full merits is about 160 I think - this is with even the little things like SMN buffs and INT potions. If you MB this and get the 1.3x bonus, this comes to ~208 damage on the MB.

@8MV 208 damage base gives 53,248 damage 80.6% HP

Technically if you had this setup, you could hold AV at 80-81% then blast it with a 8MV helix. If you go below 80%, you start to get damage reduction (starts -30%), so it's best to stick with above 80%.

To answer your question about full helix on AV, we have tried it. We went for a full 9 MV "magic bullet" a few weeks ago. The helix damages we got were about ~140, but failed to land 9 x9 times before depop. We were aiming to just repeatedly attempt 9 MV and "luck out". The extent of our knowledge is that (1) AV can be helix'd for over 130 damage, and (2) 9 MV works. So we just put them together. That's fairly good logic there imo.

I had LJ pics if you wanted to see the helix damage on AV.

AV definitely does not get -%DT from 79% mode and 59% mode, it is a progressive drop. Anyone trying this, you will not want to take AV very low at all, the lower you take him, the less %DMG you deal, both physical and magical. The best way to do it would be straight from 100% and hitting all 9MV. Unless you were to MB the helix with the best possible gear and buffs, but even 80% HP would most likely net you too little damage to warrant doing 9 at 100% HP.

[Spira]

sorry to seem like I'm just chiming in on the theorycraft but wouldnt 8MVs be better than 9 if it means you've a better chance at getting that x256 proc guarantee..

it seems like its not possible to exactly 1 shot AV already.. currenty theories seem to favour taking to 80% or even 75%, then 1 shotting using 9MVs... which is probably the best option, since people have gotten him down to that level without that much difficulty..

or maybe its possible to do multiple Helix attempts.. arguably more dangerous but if your tank party is solid, and you can somewhat stay his temper for about 1-2minutes <60% or in bracelets mode... it should be possible to do with just 2 corsairs (1 in each party of SCHs).. since 140x256 (assuming i'm calculating correctly) is 35840.. which is about 50% of his HP.
If theres a 30% dmg reduction.. assuming its applied directly to the 140 helix figure, thats 98 dmg/tic, which when 8MVed is still 25088 dmg.. assuming it hits as low as 70dmg/tic, you'd still be hitting 17920 MVed tics.

2 corsairs guarantees 2 volleys with Wild Card, and up to 4 if you're willing to risk random deal first, but you probably don't need 4 volleys... or won't live to see it..

I'd say a mix of the current standard strat and the MV trick would probably work...
Downing AV to 80%, then trying 2 volleys of 8MV would probably work best..
but im just theorycrafting.. someone needs to go do this... one of the groups thats been actively trying at AV using the classic strat?

[FailureMidgard]

AV definitely does not get -%DT from 79% mode and 59% mode, it is a progressive drop. Anyone trying this, you will not want to take AV very low at all, the lower you take him, the less %DMG you deal, both physical and magical. The best way to do it would be straight from 100% and hitting all 9MV. Unless you were to MB the helix with the best possible gear and buffs, but even 80% HP would most likely net you too little damage to warrant over doing 9 at 100% HP.

Oh, well, I guess it's just hoping for good luck with 9 @ 100 then.

[rog]

sorry to seem like I'm just chiming in on the theorycraft but wouldnt 8MVs be better than 9 if it means you've a better chance at getting that x256 proc guarantee..

it seems like its not possible to exactly 1 shot AV already.. currenty theories seem to favour taking to 80% or even 75%, then 1 shotting using 9MVs... which is probably the best option, since people have gotten him down to that level without that much difficulty..

or maybe its possible to do multiple Helix attempts.. arguably more dangerous but if your tank party is solid, and you can somewhat stay his temper for about 1-2minutes <60% or in bracelets mode... it should be possible to do with just 2 corsairs (1 in each party of SCHs).. since 140x256 (assuming i'm calculating correctly) is 35840.. which is about 50% of his HP.

You do realize that 50% of it's hp means that one more and it'd be dead, right? You only need a 130 helix to 1shot it with 9x mv.