Goodbye present - how to kill AV (before it's patched)

[Hapernack]

Edit: Suiram, if I remember correctly, AV's AI would lock up when using the Kraken method. So in essence, it's as if they locked AV's actions.

In the massive amount of spam, AV would attempt to get several things (including 2hrs) off all at the same time. This clogging of his actions was sort of like locking. Every now and then you still got unlucky and ate Meteors though so it wasn't really a true lock.

[Spekkio]

I'm having trouble figuring out how people compare this to an exploit. Maybe it's just me, but I think what is and what isn't an exploit is quite clear in FFXI.

Edit: Suiram, if I remember correctly, AV's AI would lock up when using the Kraken method. So in essence, it's as if they locked AV's actions.

i think AV's behavior was much like bv2's behavior is. after you do some damage to him, he spends some time trying to do something else (changing modes on AV, throwing a flare on bv2) giving you enough time to cleave off more HP and repeat the process of locking up his AI. slow down at all and give him a chance to act and kaboom. game over. that's why the zerg attempts didn't wipe horribly despite an un-stunned AV i believe.

[Ivve]

Ok, I'll let you safe face it.

It's pointless to discuss whether SE will or will not patch a mechanic of the game because quite frankly, whether you're right or wrong means nothing until they actually fix it. Worry about what's in front of you now. Either do the MV tactic or don't, it's that simple. If SE happens to patch it before then, too bad. Nothing constructive can come out of this thread other than actual attempts using this strategy.

Safe face what? That's what I've been saying the whole time. Who really gives a shit about the semantics? I'm more interested in seeing tests, numbers, videos, or any other relevant information to testing this tactic than having a dumb fucking discussion about people who cry exploit. I'm pretty sure you agree with me based on everything else you said, but for some reason you felt the need to first dredge up the stupid argument that had died down, and then argue with someone who essentially holds the same view that you do. Truly fucking confused broski.

Edit: Additionally, I believe anyone who thinks that this will not be adjusted in some manner pending its success is out of their minds, simply for the reason that SE patches things they think are too powerful. There are previous examples of it happening, and just because this use of MV is not a clear cut case of abusing some kind of design weakness doesn't make it impervious to adjustments. Those saying it won't be patched because it's not illegal, not an exploit, etc, are either kidding themselves or new to the game.

[Yugl]

Safe face what? That's what I've been saying the whole time. Who really gives a shit about the semantics? I'm more interested in seeing tests, numbers, videos, or any other relevant information to testing this tactic than having a dumb fucking discussion about people who cry exploit. I'm pretty sure you agree with me based on everything else you said, but for some reason you felt the need to first dredge up the stupid argument that had died down, and then argue with someone who essentially holds the same view that you do. Truly fucking confused broski.

Edit: Additionally, I believe anyone who thinks that this will not be adjusted in some manner pending its success is out of their minds, simply for the reason that SE patches things they think are too powerful. There are previous examples of it happening, and just because this use of MV is not a clear cut case of abusing some kind of design weakness doesn't make it impervious to adjustments. Those saying it won't be patched because it's not illegal, not an exploit, etc, are either kidding themselves or new to the game.

I haven't checked since yesterday, so as far as I was concerned, the quote in Kaidef (SP, not looking at the name now) and your ambiguous post made it seem as if you were trying to break away from the argument you posed yesterday. We agree that it doesn't matter though, so what will be will be.

[Ivve]

What argument that I posed yesterday? It's a shame that all the posts I made were apparently removed (super duper appreciated), because every single one of them has been exactly in line with that one. I've never said it was an exploit of any kind, and do not agree that it is. I think it's ridiculous to call it that.

I do, however, see that once again SE clearly did not bother to do some math or run any kind of tests at all before implementing this particular ability. That's the other piece of the puzzle. SE likes to have us playtest their patches, adjustments, new jobs, etc for them and then just respond accordingly. I firmly believe that if they played their own game to any reasonable degree, the vast majority of emergency maintenances to fix abilities gone awry would probably not have happened.

I would have just quoted myself from earlier in the thread in my last post to demonstrate what I've had to type out, but what can you do when people start pulling posts?

That said, are there even any plans to test this right now? We can math all day, but without actually applying it to AV, there's really nothing we can do but speculate and I honestly don't find that to be a particularly worthwhile use of time. There was some information posted earlier about this strategy taking a solid ~25% of damage off AV's max health, so we know it can't be oneshotted, but has any further strategizing actually been done? I've seen people talk about pushing it down to 59% health and then trying this to see what kind of damage it can do in the face of AV's damage reduction, but even if it does a full 25% again from that point, you still have the last third of the HP to handle and on top of that you have to apparently continue to survive meteors and etc. Does that mean that this is not even a viable option? Because it seems that way to me unless someone's got like 27+ highly trained, well geared, and max merited scholars on standby (not including the support they require), this just isn't going to happen.

(Also, was the 25% damage from a smaller group of SCH, 6 or so? I can't find the post anymore, but even with the additional 3 SCH, you're only going to push AV's health down to a level where he's gained damage resistance.)

I'm kind of afraid that lack of knowledge (and OnEvent, it seems) on how to do this is going to have people wasting their time trying to get the timing nailed and it will be patched before we can even make an attempt.

[Yugl]

I wasn't in direct argument with you (It was someone named Corenzo or something like that). He stated that his justification for the MV strategy being an exploit was because it enabled people to "One shot mobs". I made a joke off that which he retorted sarcastically with your posts supplementing much of his comments.

[Ivve]

I agreed with him that it seems kind of overpowered, and I don't think that the difficulty of arranging the proper setup and timing means half a shit in SE's eyes. I heard the same justifications in 2004/2005 when people were saying BLM was overpowered. "Oh, but it's really hard to get enough BLMs together to oneshot whole BCNMs!" people cried. SE was not impressed and toned the job down a few times as a result.

They're especially touchy about little miss AV, to the point that if you used the terrain to your advantage, you got fucking banned! Nevermind the fact that using the different levels of terrain to avoid getting hit with either spells or physical AoE is implemented in other places (sup DL, sup lolavatarprimes): this is Sparta motherfucker! You eat your meteors and you like it.

[Arthars]

i wouldnt care about other stuffs, most things can die with zerg setup atm, but that dont mean you can have 10 KC drks always. if your shell got 10 kc drks, good for you. usually people zerg with mix anyways, war drg sam etc etc depending what job they have

thats where every job can do their shit in a zerg situation, exception bring DRK have a huge advantage with KC and their JAs. but that doesnt mean other jobs cant zerg too

however, 9x MV is not a mix

its just about 1 very very good MAB INT pumped SCH + 9 other naked SCH with full merits

so what if its hard to pull off, if you can time it well or practice well, you can 1 shot stuffs, and even one shotting a lolyovra is pretty overpowered to me

helix > 6 sec > MVx8-9 = win

i dont even call it a strategy. the mob dont even have time to do what is built in within itself, its a glitch

but being said, its not player's fault, its SE's and we know the patch will come. so use it while you can i guess

i will do it too if i can find 9 sch with full merits, why not

[Arthars]

I agreed with him that it seems kind of overpowered, and I don't think that the difficulty of arranging the proper setup and timing means half a shit in SE's eyes. I heard the same justifications in 2004/2005 when people were saying BLM was overpowered. "Oh, but it's really hard to get enough BLMs together to oneshot whole BCNMs!" people cried. SE was not impressed and toned the job down a few times as a result.

They're especially touchy about little miss AV, to the point that if you used the terrain to your advantage, you got fucking banned! Nevermind the fact that using the different levels of terrain to avoid getting hit with either spells or physical AoE is implemented in other places (sup DL, sup lolavatarprimes): this is Sparta motherfucker! You eat your meteors and you like it.

nothing we can argue anyway, its SE's game

they want AV to be the hardest mob in game and want it to be bloody and "long" (pre patch)

terrain, goblin footprint, KCBW zergs are not in their rules of being "legit" and they nerf ban us

what can we do?

nothing, except finding more glitches and beta test their AV further

i'll tell you what they will do:
Make AV a even matched rabbit outside opening town in FF14

AV just a "pet" in FFXI
its for SE to tell other games : "we got a NM that no one can beat for 4 years or so "
other games dev: "thats bullshit yo"
WOW: "thats cool i wish i could do that butmy playerbase are all 10-12 year old kids that will prolly whine/cry "

FF is famous for having insane mobs in every series anyway, except in FFXI its call AV and not ultima/omega weapon anymore

[Virtuous Saint]

nothing we can argue anyway, its SE's game

they want AV to be the hardest mob in game and want it to be bloody and "long" (pre patch)

terrain, goblin footprint, KCBW zergs are not in their rules of being "legit" and they nerf ban us

what can we do?

nothing, except finding more glitches and beta test their AV further

i'll tell you what they will do:
Make AV a even matched rabbit outside opening town in FF14

AV just a "pet" in FFXI
its for SE to tell other games : "we got a NM that no one can beat for 4 years or so "
other games dev: "thats bullshit yo"
WOW: "thats cool i wish i could do that butmy playerbase are all 10-12 year old kids that will prolly whine/cry "

FF is famous for having insane mobs in every series anyway, except in FFXI its call AV and not ultima/omega weapon anymore

You realize AV can be killed right? Just checking.

[Virtuous Saint]

i think AV's behavior was much like bv2's behavior is. after you do some damage to him, he spends some time trying to do something else (changing modes on AV, throwing a flare on bv2) giving you enough time to cleave off more HP and repeat the process of locking up his AI. slow down at all and give him a chance to act and kaboom. game over. that's why the zerg attempts didn't wipe horribly despite an un-stunned AV i believe.

This is exactly right. AV would always continue to rape you if you failed a zerg, the only thing that killing it quickly does is slow down its actions due to AI changes the main example being when it pulls out bracelets. The only reason AV would not 2hr during most zergs is because it never had time to. As has been said a million times 2hrs are on a timer, and AV cannot use them unless that is up just as a player can't cast Utsu if the timer is down. It did get 2hrs off in some slower zergs however, or zergs that started well into its 2hr recast timer. AV gained all AI when you zergged it down, it was never glitched, it just did not have time to react as you would expect it to.

[sciezka.]

so im at a loss here... has there been legitimate testing of this on AV himself??? i only saw the pics of the 1 test that took off 25% of its hp, which i see as huge progress on getting AV killed. has there been much more testing since that? and if not, why the heck arnt there more people trying this out???

[Argettio]

so im at a loss here... has there been legitimate testing of this on AV himself??? i only saw the pics of the 1 test that took off 25% of its hp, which i see as huge progress on getting AV killed. has there been much more testing since that? and if not, why the heck arnt there more people trying this out???

How MV works was not well enough understood for people to think it was possible. And those that knew were not shouting it from the roof tops (for obvious reasons).

There were a few groups trying it with mixed success. AV has never been killed with this method (and it is doubtful it ever will as the patch will be incoming).

The limiting factor is having enough SCH with the right mix of merits (which is not the 'normal' merit set up), and then training them to do this accurately enough to kill any 'important' mobs.

[Tirgen]

As I've been reading this thread, it confuses me a little why there is so much animosity about MV stacking being overpowered. It seems a lot of people have made the assumption that this is actually going to work in practice since it looks good on paper.

What I was trying to illustrate by tossing out the idea of Blu Burning AV, is that there are a great many ideas that sound good 'on paper' but may or may not work in practice. Read any of the previous AV threads and you'll find a dozen 'ideas' that could or could not be viable strategy.

So far, we've seen a video of players 1 shotting an Om'Yorva, something that is not impossible to do with a group of blm's and timed volley of Am2's. We've heard about (perhaps there are pics, I haven't seen them but the the source is credible none the less) about MV stacking doing large damage to Hydra.

But on the other side, NOBODY has used this method to actually produce a verified kill of something worthwhile. Multiple groups have been trying and testing for weeks or months, and it hasn't happened. Given the credibility of those groups, I think it is very safe to say that regardless of if this does yield a kill or not, it is not yet overpowered.

Think about it, overpowered has 2 aspects, First being really really strong, and second being actually accepted and used reliably. If you can MV kill AV 1/50 times is that really overpowered? It only seems so since 1/50 is so much better than 0/50. Would you be happy with a 1/50 success rate on JOL? No, you'd adjust your strategy and find a better way.

[Lonewind]

The only way to get SE to release another hint to the playerbase is to keep finding "unintended" methods to throw at AV. At some point one of them is going to have enough sense to say "look, they've found 7 different ways to kill it and none of them were the right way...lets just throw them a bone because they are smarter than we are".

SE do not respond to "unintended methods", SE responds to bad publicity such as the 18 hour PW marathon. Someone just needs to have a stroke being stressed out about AV or commits group suicide with AV written across their chests for the devs to wake up.

[Chaz]

Right...because SE didn't nerf every method we've found to kill AV. That wasn't a response at all. They also didn't release a video detailing a fairly major hint largely due to the player base's malcontent. That wasn't a response either.

I do agree people dying while fighting it will prompt a larger/swifter response, I don't feel like taking one for the team on this one though.

[Ivve]

I think he means respond by making the fight more manageable.

[Bikpik]

So far, we've seen a video of players 1 shotting an Om'Yorva, something that is not impossible to do with a group of blm's and timed volley of Am2's. We've heard about (perhaps there are pics, I haven't seen them but the the source is credible none the less) about MV stacking doing large damage to Hydra.

To match the potential dmg output of 10 Schs (on a 100+ dmg helix), you'd need 50+ Blms doing a timed AMII nuke (assuming 2k+ dmg per nuke)

[Hogie]

To match the potential dmg output of 10 Schs (on a 100+ dmg helix), you'd need 50+ Blms doing a timed AMII nuke (assuming 2k+ dmg per nuke)

Also assuming that no one gets resisted and there is not a MASSIVE damage lost of 50 nukes all the same element hitting at the exact same time.

[Therin]

He meant on a Yovra. <_< I'm no BLM but I'm pretty sure 18 BLMs could do 18,000 damage with timed ES AMII nukes.

And who said the BLMs have to use the same element? All AMII is equal in damage, I thought.