Putting this shit to rest: FFXI "Exploits"

[Alleya]

I don't think the argument that cheating is only what the publisher decides it is is necessarily true. The game as it exists has an implicit set of obvious rules. Take for example damage formulas. People are willing to accept a range of possible damage output based on the obvious variability of damage calculation, which almost always includes an element of chance. Equipment and ideal conditions can allow someone to approach a mathematically optimal point. If someone greatly exceeds the obvious limitations of the game, and it's found that they do so by manipulating some programming weakness, a vast majority of fellow players would agree that it could be called cheating.

Again I think that if you are going to attack the views of the players, you do have to take into account that there is a social aspect inherent in engaging in organized activities with other human beings. You can make a semantic argument about whether or not rules established by programming are explicit in the same way rules in print are, but when you introduce the human element you can't ignore the implications of fair-play agreements.

Also we make no agreement to the other players in order to play FFXI, we make only make an agreement to SE.

As I said, it's an unstated understanding, which is why people get offended by the behaviors of others, even though in a very technical, ad-hoc sort of way, no such agreement exists in an explicit form. To make an analogy: if you enter a curling tournament, you are technically only making an agreement to follow the rules with the organizers of the event. That doesn't mean that other players don't have a right to be annoyed if your curling stone weighs less than theirs. It's unsporting. Everyone comes there with the understanding that curling stones weigh about X amount. There might not be a rule in the tournament guidelines, but the person with the lighter stone can still be seen by others to be violating that unspoken agreement about what curling actually is.

[Ryko]

I don't think the argument that cheating is only what the publisher decides it is is necessarily true. The game as it exists has an implicit set of obvious rules. Take for example damage formulas. People are willing to accept a range of possible damage output based on the obvious variability of damage calculation, which almost always includes an element of chance. Equipment and ideal conditions can allow someone to approach a mathematically optimal point. If someone greatly exceeds the obvious limitations of the game, and it's found that they do so by manipulating some programming weakness, a vast majority of fellow players would agree that it could be called cheating.

Untrue, it at the very most can be considered an exploit and even then it may not even be a fault of the player but rather the fault of the obvious glaring flaw in the programming (see: initial 2 handed patch). Either way it's far from cheating and at the very most should be patched if found to be over the top. Sometimes the patch is honestly uncalled for (haste patch) as it requires a level of meticulousness only found at the highest levels of play.

[Alleya]

The two handed patch isn't quite the same as what I'm referring to. Players had no choice there, they just logged on one day and found that SE didn't bother to playtest their patch. I'm talking about someone who discovers some blatant trick and uses it to their advantage. It'd be clear to anyone who had played the game that doing so "shouldn't" be possible, therefore using it can be considered cheating.

[Ryko]

It was meant to note an extreme in the idea that if the programming allows it to happen and if there is no precedent set for banning they should look at it as what it is, a manipulation of the game's code. Duping had a precedent set for banning so people who got rocked for it shouldn't have been surprised, the people who argued "well it was SE's fault for allowing it to happen" ignored the fact that every previous instance of duping fell into the same category so they weren't going to be left with a slap on the wrist. Exceeding damage soft caps (and that's essentially what it is) by finding the right combinaiton of abilities, spells, and gear is at the very most an exploit, and the precedent set by SE for things like this is just patching it.

[Alleya]

It was meant to note an extreme in the idea that if the programming allows it to happen and if there is no precedent set for banning they should look at it as what it is, a manipulation of the game's code. Duping had a precedent set for banning so people who got rocked for it shouldn't have been surprised, the people who argued "well it was SE's fault for allowing it to happen" ignored the fact that every previous instance of duping fell into the same category so they weren't going to be left with a slap on the wrist. Exceeding damage soft caps (and that's essentially what it is) by finding the right combinaiton of abilities, spells, and gear is at the very most an exploit, and the precedent set by SE for things like this is just patching it.

Is that what the impetus was for BRP's post? Because if it is, then yeah. Players can't really be blamed for SE's incompetence and schizophrenic design goals.

If you were to apply this question to a game that's actually well designed, like wow, the issue becomes much more granular.

[Ryko]

He mentioned other games like smash but as far as melee went the only thing that wasnt fair game even in tournament play was peach bomber stalling, every other single exploit, glitch, infinite, etc was allowed.

Obviously tournament play made other things like specific stages illegal but gameplay-wise it was left untouched.

[Callisto]

Pretty sure that's exactly what he means, as this is all in reference to some people doing something that is perfectly within the parameters of the game's coding, but still does things beyond what 'should' be possible, and by that I mean only in the sense that in no sort of game should someone rightly be able to kill what is arguably the hardest foe in the game within 10 seconds. But everyone shouts 'exploit' at it, when it really isn't.

[BRP]

I tried hard replying to this in time, but I have to go and will need to reply later.

I will say this for now:

He mentioned other games like smash but as far as melee went the only thing that wasnt fair game even in tournament play was peach bomber stalling, every other single exploit, glitch, infinite, etc was allowed.

I mentioned Melee because like all fighting game communities it doesn't suffer from this "exploit morality" problem MMOs tend to. Stuff in fighting games do get banned, but it is very moderate and the people doing it usually understand they are creating a new version of the game when they do so. (EDIT: The difference between tournament rules and Balanced Brawl / Brawl+ is not so distinct, satisfaction aside.)

I also wanted to point that, unlike FFXI, you are free to play Melee with items, levels, stalling, and so on because you can play it outside a tournament setting.

[Cheerios]

Mario Kart DS snaking= ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Colenzo]

If you are going to say that having the ability to 1 shot a monster isn't an exploit then you are just a fucking retard. I cant say that in advanced but I will do it here because I can

[Ryko]

Colenzo, read next time you feel like responding.

[Zalius]

itt: a clear representation of people who have read playing to win vs. those who have not

[Shiroikage]

Mario Kart DS snaking= ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

I could snake like a boss.

[Colenzo]

Colenzo, read next time you feel like responding.

go read the thread in advanced where I responded nignog

[BRP]

I've never read Sirlin's Playing to Win, but I do post on his forums.

And Colenzo shows he is not even in the stratosphere. Just keep reading and keep thinking, because you currently have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject. Or you can flap your mouth. Whatever.

Anyway to respond to Alleya:

I don't think the argument that cheating is only what the publisher decides it is is necessarily true.

It is true for FFXI. The publisher doesn't decide anything in other games because they can't police their ideas on players like they can in MMOs. What is cheating comes down to the individual. Not that it matters though, because morons("scrubs") will call anything cheating and you can just ignore them.

I am confused by this "human element" because it seems to have nothing to do with the rules. It seems like misdirection. Either that or I am not understanding what you mean by it. Alternatively you could be talking about people making up their own rules? When someone makes a "fair-play agreement" they might be changing the game(similar to "cheating" actually in that respect.) Still though, confused.

Everyone comes there with the understanding that curling stones weigh about X amount. There might not be a rule in the tournament guidelines, but the person with the lighter stone can still be seen by others to be violating that unspoken agreement about what curling actually is.

I have to say this is a very poor analogy. A curling game/tournament that doesn't entail a specific weight? That doesn't make any sense. Why are the other guys not using the lower weights?

If someone greatly exceeds the obvious limitations of the game, and it's found that they do so by manipulating some programming weakness, a vast majority of fellow players would agree that it could be called cheating.

That's just terrible. Someone should write a blue gartr post about them...

It'd be clear to anyone who had played the game that doing so "shouldn't" be possible, therefore using it can be considered cheating.

This is exactly what I am against. "Shouldn't" is worthless, birthed from ignorance. You shouldn't be able to this combo, you shouldn't be able to kite that monster, etc. While the "commoners" might whine, the smart ones will just adapt.

Anything in the rules, the very game itself, is as fair-game as equipment swaps. This is until SE decides to ban you for it.

EDIT: Also I want to get away from the whole "bad game design" and "programming weakness" bit. It is irrelevant really. You use the tools that are given to you. If under those conditions the game isn't fun, we shouldn't be playing it. Other fish in the sea, etc.

[Alleya]

I think I understand better now that you were talking about people whining about strategies being cheating and/or SE deciding that some strategy that operates within the programmatic limitations of the game is cheating post-hoc. I agree with you there. I thought you were talking about cheating in a general sense, like bots/duping/automation/etc, hence I was suggesting the social aspect of that particular issue as it relates to the ambiguity in the rules of video games.

[BRP]

Depending on how its done duping is pretty much fair game until SE bans it. Buying and selling a profit from NPC, breaking up your party, etc all in the boundaries of the game. Messing with your internet connection, not so much. Though if no one is there to enforce it, it is no different than gameshark.

Botting is a bit more complicated, but is no different than using a quarter in Track and Field, the arcade game. Or if you we want to go down that spectrum: a strategy guide/blue gartr. It is a distinct advantage outside of the game, but does not change the game. It is usually logical to ban this stuff(well, the bigger things, not for getting information lol) because it might interfere with the tournament-holder/MMO provider's "test" of skill. Botting is something entirely different from "exploits."

Automation... as in botting?

More importantly, all the above are banned because SE says so.

[Charismatic]

Also, only when they say so!
Apparently attended bot use is allowed or something.

[Charismatic]

Even though in the terms of service it is said that it is not

[BRP]

Yeah, that's one of the larger problems. They can't even clearly define what is against the rules. Saying something like "duping" is against the rules acts more like warning because it doesn't specify the actual act.

I believe it is unreasonable to ban people for using something you gave them with the version update, but that's only as a costumer. Would be pretty handy as a developer. It is their game after all.