What's a decent forum I can join for debate?

[Sirrus_Asura]

Not for nothing, but if you're an older guy, and you drug, then anally rape a 13 year old girl Glenn Beck style, then don't you deserve to be taken off the street? Forgiven or not, you're a sick fuck that needs to be locked up. The fact that he dodged his court hearing by skipping the country also puts him in line for some jail time, on top of what he did to that girl.

He should go to jail. He committed a crime and tried to avoid paying for it. But all these people coming forth as if they're speaking on behalf of the girl is fucking moronic.

[Sirrus_Asura]

What does forgiveness have to do with it, anyway? It's a criminal case, not a civil one. In civil cases, forgive all you want. It's the defendant pressing charges. In criminal cases, the defendant has nothing to do with it. It's the state pressing charges.

Besides, even if you want to argue that criminal cases should be thrown out if the victim forgives the perp, what if the victim merely forgives because their religion says they must? Or they are otherwise intimidated or coerced into it, or are mentally unstable or immature? I can go commit virtually any crime I please against catholics or buddhists or a few other select religions because, more than likely, they'll forgive me. Or if I kidnap someone, I just have to make sure to keep them long enough for them to bond to me.

The idea of the state pressing charges really rubs me the wrong way. Though, I do get its there in order to comdem behavior that the people of the state do not condone.

[Zethren]

genmay.net

The Pit

[Stumblingdrunk]

2. If the law is how you gauge what is right and wrong, then you're a fucking idiot.

You have ignored several times, the reason why rape victims are inclined to "forgive" their attackers, and continue to make an argument based upon false assumptions after having it pointed out to you more than once. You seem to think that "forgiveness" excuses violent criminal behavior. You don't seem to understand how wealth could be used in order to encourage forgiveness, therefore making your "forgiveness makes it ok" mentality set a terrible precedent. You seem to think the enforcement of law is a vengeful emotional response. Obviously I'm the fucking idiot here.

P.S The law is not how i gauge right and wrong. Unlike you apparently, I do not require a law to tell me that people who drug and rape 13 year old girls should be imprisoned.

[zoobernut]

Just out of curiosity SD where is the evidence that he drugged and raped her? IIRC they said the original charge was statutory rape and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He gave her champagne and then had sex with her.

No where that I saw did it allege anal rape or violent rape.

Not that it makes a difference I was just curious.

[Stumblingdrunk]

Just out of curiosity SD where is the evidence that he drugged and raped her? IIRC they said the original charge was statutory rape and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He gave her champagne and then had sex with her.

No where that I saw did it allege anal rape or violent rape.

Not that it makes a difference I was just curious.

First I'd like to address, the "violent rape" thing. Call it just my opinion if you will, but rape is an act of violence. I did not use the term "violent rape" I said "violent criminal behavior" as the term "violent rape" would be redundant as per my opinion.

Polanski was initially charged with rape by use of drugs, perversion, sodomy, lewd and lascivious act upon a child under 14, and furnishing a controlled substance (methaqualone) to a minor. These charges were dismissed under the terms of his plea bargain, and he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of engaging in unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor

FindLaw: Roman Polanski's Indictment Charging that he Sexually Molested a 13-Year-Old Girl

You are correct if what you were saying was that all he plead guilty to was statutory rape, but that was only the case due to plea bargaining.

[zoobernut]

Ok thank you. The only reason why I use the term violent rape is because in our society rape is NOT always an act of violence. Statutory rape is not defined as being a violent rape, in fact you can have two consensual individuals and one of them might be committing statutory rape, so in my opinion the distinction is valid specially in this case where you are arguing what he did vs. what he was charged with.

Also if he made a plea bargain and is only guilty of (in the eyes of the law) statutory rape and the other charge then I think it does change the argument because you have to look at the severity of the charges when considering how worthwhile it is to pursue someone and spend time and money on it. Also I believe this is a different case with respect to the victim forgiving the perpetrator of the crime considering that it has been so long since the original crime was committed and the victim is now in her 40's, I am sure she can speak from a much more frank position and is not coerced into forgiving the perpetrator or any of the more common occurrences when someone forgives their attacker.

[Elvis]

The Smoking Gun - Polanski The Predator

The original court transcript - beginning w/ the Quaaludes.

It was definitely 'rape rape' (as Whoopi Goldberg so eloquently...denied it was). She was protesting his advances, but in the testimony she says she was afraid of him so she didn't fight it off more aggressively.

The guy even almost got caught by a lady friend he had over. He simply stopped the rape, went to answer the door (cracked the door open slightly) and lied to her. He said he had gotten out of the shower. The lady friend left, and Polanski continued.

[Stumblingdrunk]

I am sure she can speak from a much more frank position and is not coerced into forgiving the perpetrator or any of the more common occurrences when someone forgives their attacker.

I'm gonna repeat myself here, because in light of what I'm about to say i find it hard to understand why the act of forgiving her attacker in any way absolves him from wrongdoing. Women in these cases are generally encouraged to forgive their attacker, not for the benefit of the criminal, but for the well being of the victim. The act of forgiving your attacker is not really about your attacker, its about letting go of hatred and resentments. These are things that despite being 40 years old, can ruin your life in certain ways if you do not address them. ...was something else i wanted to say but i forgot what it was Q_Q

[zoobernut]

I'm gonna repeat myself here, because in light of what I'm about to say i find it hard to understand why that act of forgiving her attacker in any way absolves him from wrongdoing. Women in these cases are generally encouraged to forgive their attacker, not for the benefit of the criminal, but for the well being of the victim. The act of forgiving your attacker is not really about your attacker, its about letting go of hatred and resentments. These are things that despite being 40 years old, can ruin your life in certain ways if you do not address them. ...was something else i wanted to say but i forgot what it was Q_Q

If this is a large concern then maybe they should listen to her when she says that continuing to press charges at this point does much more harm to her than just letting it go. I understand everything you are saying but that is not how it is 100% of the time different people deal with situations differently and not everyone forgives for their own sake. Some people actually forgive others. This is not to say that it forgives him from the law. However I just wanted to point out that what you said does not apply to everyone all the time.

[Stumblingdrunk]

If this is a large concern then maybe they should listen to her when she says that continuing to press charges at this point does much more harm to her than just letting it go. I understand everything you are saying but that is not how it is 100% of the time different people deal with situations differently and not everyone forgives for their own sake. Some people actually forgive others. This is not to say that it forgives him from the law. However I just wanted to point out that what you said does not apply to everyone all the time.

I disagree, i think that in general forgiveness is usually a selfish act. That is not to say that others never benefit from it, but i think that we often times ignore how forgiving others benefits ourselves. Though there is an argument to be made regarding her wishing the issue were dropped and Polanski not be forced to serve time. That is unfortunately not how the law works. Sirius has claimed that those seeking punishment are making decisions based on emotion. Which is an ironic stance to take when arguing that a woman's emotional decision should dictate our behavior in spite of written law.

[zoobernut]

I disagree, i think that in general forgiveness is usually a selfish act. That is not to say that others never benefit from it, but i think that we often times ignore how forgiving others benefits ourselves. Though there is an argument to be made regarding her wishing the issue were dropped and Polanski not be forced to serve time. That is unfortunately not how the law works. Sirius has claimed that those seeking punishment are making decisions based on emotion. Which is an ironic stance to take when arguing that a woman's emotional decision should dictate our behavior in spite of written law.

How can you say you disagree with me and then say what I said just worded differently. I didn't say it wasn't selfish 100% of the time I just said it wasn't selfish 100% of the time which you agree with here.

[kuronosan]

Sirrus, I wonder if you are really that narrow-minded to where you'll focus more on the 911/rape metaphor and not on the principle of forgiveness. No, flying a plane into a building full of people is not the same thing as raping somebody. The point is, a crime is a crime and forgiveness doesn't guarantee that it won't happen again.

Sirrusly, I thought you were smarter than that.

[Stumblingdrunk]

How can you say you disagree with me and then say what I said just worded differently. I didn't say it wasn't selfish 100% of the time I just said it wasn't selfish 100% of the time which you agree with here.

I apologize, I assumed that "not everyone forgives for their own sake" implied that the majority did not. My assumption being based on the idea that if we are only aware of her motivation via making assumptions, that our assumptions would be based on that which we felt was most likely the case.

[Sirrus_Asura]

Sirrus, I wonder if you are really that narrow-minded to where you'll focus more on the 911/rape metaphor and not on the principle of forgiveness. No, flying a plane into a building full of people is not the same thing as raping somebody. The point is, a crime is a crime and forgiveness doesn't guarantee that it won't happen again.

Sirrusly, I thought you were smarter than that.

Neither does locking someone up for anything OTHER than a life sentence.

[zoobernut]

I apologize, I assumed that "not everyone forgives for their own sake" implied that the majority did not. My assumption being based on the idea that if we are only aware of her motivation via making assumptions, that our assumptions would be based on that which we felt was most likely the case.

I am glad you understand what I meant now.

I was merely pointing out that talking about human beings, and human beings are an unpredictable bunch it doesn't matter what statistics say or what the majority is, since each persons decision/motivation is a unique event you need to consider each one individually and not assume what her motivations are for "forgiving" him just because the majority of the time it is for selfish reasons. It is like having a completely random set of numbers spit out by a truly random number generator and noticing that the majority of them (over 50%) are the number 9 and then assuming the next number will be 9. Each number spit out is a completely discrete number so all the numbers before it have no bearing on what it will be.

[Khamsin]

First I'd like to address, the "violent rape" thing. Call it just my opinion if you will, but rape is an act of violence. I did not use the term "violent rape" I said "violent criminal behavior" as the term "violent rape" would be redundant as per my opinion.

Rape can sometimes be very sensual and not violent at all, as is the case in most statutory rape crimes, and some normal rape crimes committed against unconscious, drunk, or confused women. This includes rape committed against women who, at the time, gave into pressure for sex but later felt bad or pressured into it and changed their mind.

[zoobernut]

Rape can sometimes be very sensual and not violent at all, as is the case in most statutory rape crimes, and some normal rape crimes committed against unconscious, drunk, or confused women. This includes rape committed against women who, at the time, gave into pressure for sex but later felt bad or pressured into it and changed their mind.

This is exactly why I think that different distinctions need to be made. I also think that the different kinds of rape are more likely with different kinds of people with different mental issues. Someone who commits statutory rape is not in the same category as someone who commits violent rape and is not necessarily going to start being a violent rapist.

[Khamsin]

One common rape myth I hear is that rape is purely about violence and has nothing to do with sex. However, in reality, most rape is actually about passion and sexual arousal, and not violence. Although, it is true that there are some rape cases where the rapist is being sadistic and violent more to humiliate and harm the victim than to get his rocks off, which is where the myth originates from.

However, many rape cases are simply two people getting a bit too heavy, one changes their mind or is drunk/drugged/confused/underage/scared to say no, and ends up feeling violated. Doesn't make it any less wrong, but it's a different motivation and a different kind of rape.

It's not always some black guy waiting in the bushes to ambush you with his 18 incher, dry, while beating you, just because he had a bad day. It happens, but its in the minority.

[Correction]

It's painted as an act of violence mostly due to the psychological impact it has on the victim, which is often little different from the impact of those physically assaulted. Calling rape an act of violence in that light is far from a myth.